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  • FIRST POST
    • Keviola
    • By Keviola 15th Sep 17, 3:53 PM
    • 13Posts
    • 0Thanks
    Keviola
    Voluntary pay cut
    • #1
    • 15th Sep 17, 3:53 PM
    Voluntary pay cut 15th Sep 17 at 3:53 PM
    Hi,

    I'm a substitute teacher in Northern Ireland and have been for 10 years now. During this time I have moved to the top of the pay scale through annual progression. However, due to the budgetary difficulties faced in the public sector recently, I have found that I have become too expensive for schools to hire me. I have asked the Department of Education if I can move back down the pay scales to give myself a better opportunity for work but they have refused to allow me to do this.
    Can someone tell me if there is anything I might be able to do to force this issue with them?

    Thanks in advance
Page 1
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 15th Sep 17, 5:17 PM
    • 15,147 Posts
    • 14,752 Thanks
    Guest101
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:17 PM
    • #2
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:17 PM
    I don't know the system in NI, but if you aren't employed then how can there be pay scales?
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 15th Sep 17, 5:23 PM
    • 4,588 Posts
    • 3,588 Thanks
    glentoran99
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:23 PM
    • #3
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:23 PM
    I don't know the system in NI, but if you aren't employed then how can there be pay scales?
    Originally posted by Guest101
    she is employed, as a substitute teacher but you don't get paid unless you work, almost like 0 hour contract
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 15th Sep 17, 5:27 PM
    • 15,147 Posts
    • 14,752 Thanks
    Guest101
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:27 PM
    • #4
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:27 PM
    she is employed, as a substitute teacher but you don't get paid unless you work, almost like 0 hour contract
    Originally posted by glentoran99
    Oh I see. Why would they employ her directly rather than via an agency though - that's the bit I don't understand.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 15th Sep 17, 5:46 PM
    • 3,722 Posts
    • 6,100 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:46 PM
    • #5
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:46 PM
    Hi,

    I'm a substitute teacher in Northern Ireland and have been for 10 years now. During this time I have moved to the top of the pay scale through annual progression. However, due to the budgetary difficulties faced in the public sector recently, I have found that I have become too expensive for schools to hire me. I have asked the Department of Education if I can move back down the pay scales to give myself a better opportunity for work but they have refused to allow me to do this.
    Can someone tell me if there is anything I might be able to do to force this issue with them?

    Thanks in advance
    Originally posted by Keviola
    I'm afraid the answer, if I am understanding your question correctly, is no. Grades are associated based on prior experience and skills. These pay scales are agreed by the Government and by the unions to protect salaries and prevent employers from driving down wages for everyone. They are not going to vary those for one person, because that would risk tearing up every negotiation and policy ever written and bring an all out action. You can't force the government to abandon national rates and policies.

    I'm not familiar with NI, but if it is anything like the UK, the reason why you are expensive is because you are a supply teacher, who are generally more expensive than direct employees. I know a lot of supply teachers who do this work precisely because they get better pay than teachers on the books. You could solve the problem by getting a job directly instead of doing supply work?
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 15th Sep 17, 5:53 PM
    • 4,588 Posts
    • 3,588 Thanks
    glentoran99
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:53 PM
    • #6
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:53 PM
    Oh I see. Why would they employ her directly rather than via an agency though - that's the bit I don't understand.
    Originally posted by Guest101


    When getting substitute teachers in the schools pay the Department from their budget and the department pays the teacher, The schools can select who they want from those on the departments books as subs. Similar to bank shifts in nursing
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 15th Sep 17, 5:53 PM
    • 4,588 Posts
    • 3,588 Thanks
    glentoran99
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:53 PM
    • #7
    • 15th Sep 17, 5:53 PM
    I'm afraid the answer, if I am understanding your question correctly, is no. Grades are associated based on prior experience and skills. These pay scales are agreed by the Government and by the unions to protect salaries and prevent employers from driving down wages for everyone. They are not going to vary those for one person, because that would risk tearing up every negotiation and policy ever written and bring an all out action. You can't force the government to abandon national rates and policies.

    I'm not familiar with NI, but if it is anything like the UK, the reason why you are expensive is because you are a supply teacher, who are generally more expensive than direct employees. I know a lot of supply teachers who do this work precisely because they get better pay than teachers on the books. You could solve the problem by getting a job directly instead of doing supply work?
    Originally posted by sangie595

    Big shortage of teaching jobs over here
    • BorisThomson
    • By BorisThomson 15th Sep 17, 6:08 PM
    • 321 Posts
    • 456 Thanks
    BorisThomson
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 17, 6:08 PM
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 17, 6:08 PM
    I'm afraid the answer, if I am understanding your question correctly, is no. Grades are associated based on prior experience and skills. These pay scales are agreed by the Government and by the unions to protect salaries and prevent employers from driving down wages for everyone. They are not going to vary those for one person, because that would risk tearing up every negotiation and policy ever written and bring an all out action. You can't force the government to abandon national rates and policies.

    I'm not familiar with NI, but if it is anything like the UK, the reason why you are expensive is because you are a supply teacher, who are generally more expensive than direct employees. I know a lot of supply teachers who do this work precisely because they get better pay than teachers on the books. You could solve the problem by getting a job directly instead of doing supply work?
    Originally posted by sangie595
    In England, supply teachers in academy schools can choose to take/ be offered a lower rate of pay. Academies are largely free to pay as they want.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 15th Sep 17, 8:21 PM
    • 3,722 Posts
    • 6,100 Thanks
    sangie595
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 17, 8:21 PM
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 17, 8:21 PM
    In England, supply teachers in academy schools can choose to take/ be offered a lower rate of pay. Academies are largely free to pay as they want.
    Originally posted by BorisThomson
    Yes, independent schools have broken down a lot of the system. Was that a good thing? Because what I am seeing is huge class sizes, poor educational outcomes, and rubbish education. Doesn't change what I said. Just actually proves why it is valuable!
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 15th Sep 17, 8:24 PM
    • 3,722 Posts
    • 6,100 Thanks
    sangie595
    Big shortage of teaching jobs over here
    Originally posted by glentoran99
    So allowing the breach of agreed rates fixes that? Reducing pay and conditions for everyone creates more jobs?
    • hyubh
    • By hyubh 15th Sep 17, 10:20 PM
    • 1,887 Posts
    • 1,400 Thanks
    hyubh
    So allowing the breach of agreed rates fixes that? Reducing pay and conditions for everyone creates more jobs?
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Ending centrally-planned price fixing isn't 'reducing pay and conditions for everyone'. The way things work in the Gosplan-run parts of the public sector look a bit bizarre from the outside.
    • paddedjohn
    • By paddedjohn 16th Sep 17, 1:08 AM
    • 7,020 Posts
    • 7,701 Thanks
    paddedjohn
    Yes, independent schools have broken down a lot of the system. Was that a good thing? Because what I am seeing is huge class sizes, poor educational outcomes, and rubbish education. Doesn't change what I said. Just actually proves why it is valuable!
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Nothing wrong with large class sizes as long as you get a quality teacher in place. In the 70's/80's classes of 30-35 were the norm without having the need of teaching assistants and the world is still revolving.
    Be Alert..........Britain needs lerts.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 16th Sep 17, 9:42 AM
    • 3,722 Posts
    • 6,100 Thanks
    sangie595
    Ending centrally-planned price fixing isn't 'reducing pay and conditions for everyone'. The way things work in the Gosplan-run parts of the public sector look a bit bizarre from the outside.
    Originally posted by hyubh
    Most things look bizarre from the outside! Nor is it "price fixing". It is a nationally agreed pay scale based on evidenced progression points and experience. A scheme that the OP probably didn't object to when it worked in their favour. But regardless of personal opinions on any side of the argument, the OP is welcome to attempt legal action against the Department of Education. Because that is the only way in which they will get what they want. And it may end up, perversely, with the only clear case of the current government and the unions actually fighting on the same side.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 16th Sep 17, 10:03 AM
    • 3,722 Posts
    • 6,100 Thanks
    sangie595
    Nothing wrong with large class sizes as long as you get a quality teacher in place. In the 70's/80's classes of 30-35 were the norm without having the need of teaching assistants and the world is still revolving.
    Originally posted by paddedjohn
    That really depends on whether you think the 70s and 80s produced high standards of education. Which I don't! From where I am sitting, that was where the rot really set in! But I didn't say that the issue was solely about class sizes - it isn't. But neither is education about teaching large groups of people to swallow information, and devil take the hindmost (and often the foremost too!). The "education" system spends far too much time telling people what to think, and not how to think. But based on what I see in schools these days, you'd need too be desperate to want to be a teacher. Commitment and vocation no longer cut it for teachers any more, when many of them are faced with disrespect on massive scales by pupils and parents, with violence, and with a blame culture that says that teachers are responsible for falling educational standards. Many committed teachers that I know have left and won't go back to it because of the conditions they face on a day to day basis. I've seen regular examples of threatening behaviours and abuse from children as young as 8 or 9. Sometimes younger. And by threatening I don't mean even verbal threats - I mean attempts to attack teachers with weapons! And with no home support of teachers, the parents just as bad or worse. When even primary school teachers are coming home frightened of their pupils, there's no vocation in the world overcomes that.

    But yes, class size alone isn't the only factor. I went to school in the 60s actually, and my junior class size was 35 to 40. In a "bad" (ie. Poor) area too. But you know what? If one of us had even thought of cheeking a teacher, never mind actually doing it, we'd have known to expect consequences. And that would have been before our parents found out - at which point we would be knee deep in it!
    • hyubh
    • By hyubh 16th Sep 17, 11:54 PM
    • 1,887 Posts
    • 1,400 Thanks
    hyubh
    Most things look bizarre from the outside!
    Originally posted by sangie595
    It's weird even within the wider public sector. The BBC flourishes without centrally-planned renumeration policies that it has to share with Channel 4, and even local councils (within certain bounds) have their own terms and conditions that aren't micro-managed by Whitehall like those they have to adopt for teachers in so-called LA maintained schools.

    Nor is it "price fixing". It is a nationally agreed pay scale based on evidenced progression points and experience.
    Erm, that is price fixing - fixing the price of teachers' labour.

    But regardless of personal opinions on any side of the argument
    Well quite, 'personal opinions' don't change the reality of the principles by which a functioning economy actually work.

    the OP is welcome to attempt legal action against the Department of Education. Because that is the only way in which they will get what they want.
    And how quite absurd, insofar as that is true. Just as well the OP is free to move to another part of the UK, or for that matter the Republic, if the NI state and your TU colleagues will prevent them from gainful employment in NI itself, eh?
    • Silvertabby
    • By Silvertabby 17th Sep 17, 9:31 AM
    • 1,518 Posts
    • 1,812 Thanks
    Silvertabby
    But yes, class size alone isn't the only factor. I went to school in the 60s actually, and my junior class size was 35 to 40. In a "bad" (ie. Poor) area too. But you know what? If one of us had even thought of cheeking a teacher, never mind actually doing it, we'd have known to expect consequences. And that would have been before our parents found out - at which point we would be knee deep in it! Posted by sangie595
    Spot on - that's my era and experience too.
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 19th Sep 17, 9:57 AM
    • 4,588 Posts
    • 3,588 Thanks
    glentoran99
    So allowing the breach of agreed rates fixes that? Reducing pay and conditions for everyone creates more jobs?
    Originally posted by sangie595
    Who said that? it was in response to the post saying "get a job directly"
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