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  • FIRST POST
    • dadsma
    • By dadsma 14th Sep 17, 5:42 PM
    • 71Posts
    • 77Thanks
    dadsma
    Sainsbury's Stanmore - Win at POPLA
    • #1
    • 14th Sep 17, 5:42 PM
    Sainsbury's Stanmore - Win at POPLA 14th Sep 17 at 5:42 PM
    Hi all,

    The signs say the car park is managed by ECP in partnership with Sainsbury's. There is a 90 minute maximum stay policy with a £70 charge for not complying.

    Several family members are regular customers at the store and none have overstayed - until now. For whatever reason time flew by. An ANPR parking charge notice was received and the The "Newbies" sticky on this forum was read. An appeal to ECP got a rejection and POPLA code, so that appeal is being prepared.

    Meanwhile I suggested to the keeper to follow the advice often given here and request the manager of the store to cancel as the family are genuine and regular customers and it is a first time error.

    This is the reply:

    "Thank you for your e-mail concerning your PCN. On investigation I have found your transactions on our system and can confirm that you spent a maximum of £24.74 for the day in question both at the pharmacy and at checkouts. All transactions were completed between 13:38 and 13:43 that day.

    On discussion with the Store Manager, we have agreed that unfortunately we are unable to cancel your fine. We feel that given the time of the purchases, staying up to 1hr and 47 minutes further and 30 minutes over the time we give our customers, is a potential misuse of the parking agreement which has signage displayed in multiple positions around the carpark.

    As discussed previously with you, the reason we have euro carparks enforce rules on our carpark is to make sure the carpark is free and readily available for our customers.

    I appreciate that you and your family have shopped with Sainsbury’s for the time you have and value your custom and am sorry we can’t cancel this PCN.

    If you need to discuss the PCN further, the best method I can suggest is contacting euro carparks directly.

    Regards,
    David."


    I have visited that store many times and never found the car park full so I think Sainsbury's are being a bit harsh in their attitude. I am interested to know what others think.
    Last edited by dadsma; 17-10-2017 at 2:49 PM. Reason: Appeal won
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Sep 17, 6:14 PM
    • 51,522 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 14th Sep 17, 6:14 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Sep 17, 6:14 PM
    Didn't you forget you also had Auntie/Uncle with you, who paid cash for their shopping at 2.50pm?!!

    Twitter and Social Media complaints work very well. Involve Sainsburys Head Office and embarrass them online, before you try POPLA, as the code lasts for 30 days+
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • dadsma
    • By dadsma 14th Sep 17, 7:21 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    dadsma
    • #3
    • 14th Sep 17, 7:21 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Sep 17, 7:21 PM
    Initially Sainsbury's in-store help desk said the appeal had to be made to Euro Car Parks. Following the rejection and reading this forum a visit was made to the store to ask the manager if he would help and cancel the pcn. He said he could do so as long as it could be proven that "a lot of money" was spent at the store on the relevant date. A card statement was emailed to him but it seems that £24 isn't sufficient to fall into the category of "a lot of money."

    He didn't specify the threshold for how much expenditure is necessary for cancellation but what is clear from what was said is that that they will override the parking time limit policy if the customer spends enough. That shows the policy has little to do with ensuring that parking spaces are turned over rapidly, otherwise they wouldn't cancel irrespective of a customer spending £500 or £1000. In effect what they are saying is that they will ignore the time limit rule and will give you preferential treatment if you put enough money in the till. Perhaps Sainsbury's would like to comment on this point. By the way Sainsbury's, it isn't a 'fine' and when you say you are 'unable' to cancel don't you mean that your are unwilling to do so?

    I don't do social media so could someone please help by posting a link to this thread on Sainsbury's social media thingy.
    Last edited by dadsma; 14-09-2017 at 8:06 PM.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 14th Sep 17, 8:34 PM
    • 10,202 Posts
    • 9,347 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #4
    • 14th Sep 17, 8:34 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Sep 17, 8:34 PM
    Can I ask, just what did you spend all that time doing? Were there other retailers on site? Does the manager actually have a point about allowing a decent enough time to do a shop?

    I am not excusing the ridiculous PPC charge by the way.

    So it;s back to the usual template appeal points, I fear.
    • fisherjim
    • By fisherjim 14th Sep 17, 9:13 PM
    • 2,580 Posts
    • 3,839 Thanks
    fisherjim
    • #5
    • 14th Sep 17, 9:13 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Sep 17, 9:13 PM
    .....30 minutes over the time we give our customers, is a potential misuse of the parking agreement which has signage displayed in multiple positions around the carpark.

    But in addition to the signage terms and conditions which he considers to be an "agreement" he has indicated there is also a hidden additional condition based on spend, that is not disclosed!
    • dadsma
    • By dadsma 14th Sep 17, 9:39 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    dadsma
    • #6
    • 14th Sep 17, 9:39 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Sep 17, 9:39 PM
    GD - there are no other retailers on site. I have shopped there a lot and the car park has never been full in my experience. Perhaps the driver was tired and fell asleep in the car for a while before leaving the car park - I will ask and update the thread.

    FJ - I think the 90 minute maximum would discourage overstaying. However to charge a regular customer £70 for inadvertently doing so and then offer to cancel it if they have spent greater than an unknown arbitrary amount is disgraceful in my view but we now do know that £24.74 is insufficient at that particular store.

    It reminds me of the story of the playwright George Bernard Shaw and the actress Sarah Bernhardt. It goes that GBS propositioned the actress, asking whether she would sleep with him for £10,000. She said "yes". GBS then asked whether she would sleep with him for £5 to which she replied "Certainly not!, what sort of woman do you take me for?" "We have already established that" retorted the playwright, "we are simply negotiating the lowest price".

    I wonder what Sainsbury's lowest price is and why it isn't published?
    Last edited by dadsma; 14-09-2017 at 10:04 PM.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 14th Sep 17, 9:57 PM
    • 6,341 Posts
    • 8,150 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #7
    • 14th Sep 17, 9:57 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Sep 17, 9:57 PM
    dadsma

    Let's face it, Sainsbury's is not the favourite retailer
    when it comes to the top 10 supermarkets.
    Maybe they need to ask themselves WHY ??

    To say "how much you spend" before they can cancel
    a ticket does show they can cancel tickets and this alone
    shows they discriminate.
    Wonder what they do with ethnics ????

    I know of others who have found the customer service
    of Sainsbury's total rubbish

    This is the CEO to contact

    Sainsbury's

    Mr Mike Coupe Chief Executive

    Email mike.coupe@sainsburys.co.uk

    KICK UP MERRY HELL AND REQUEST HE CANCELS THE TICKET
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • dadsma
    • By dadsma 15th Sep 17, 4:37 AM
    • 71 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    dadsma
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 17, 4:37 AM
    • #8
    • 15th Sep 17, 4:37 AM
    Beamer - thank you, that's a good idea. Yesterday the customer helpline was called. A chap named Gary refused to help with getting the charge cancelled as he says he cannot go above the store manager.

    When we asked to speak with a supervisor he refused. We than asked for the name of the regional manager covering the Stanmore area - that was refused too and then Gary said he was going to put the phone down to end the call - and he did.
    • unforeseen
    • By unforeseen 15th Sep 17, 7:05 AM
    • 1,858 Posts
    • 2,353 Thanks
    unforeseen
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 17, 7:05 AM
    • #9
    • 15th Sep 17, 7:05 AM
    I lived there when that store was built. I am sure that part of the planning as that the car park as also available for people to use while shopping in the town?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 15th Sep 17, 7:19 AM
    • 15,510 Posts
    • 24,233 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I lived there when that store was built. I am sure that part of the planning as that the car park as also available for people to use while shopping in the town?
    Originally posted by unforeseen
    @dadsma - the above information could be very important. Check with your local council's planning department (you might also be able to access the details of the planning approval via their website) what the detail of the consent was.

    If it is as 'unforeseen' helpfully suggests, then you need to kick up a fuss, report to the planning department, to Trading Standards and contact your local press, because there may be many others who have been similarly caught out here, and just meekly paid up (and maybe due a refund from Sainsbury's).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 15th Sep 17, 7:35 AM
    • 10,202 Posts
    • 9,347 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    dadsma

    Let's face it, Sainsbury's is not the favourite retailer
    when it comes to the top 10 supermarkets.
    Maybe they need to ask themselves WHY ??



    KICK UP MERRY HELL AND REQUEST HE CANCELS THE TICKET
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    Absolutely right to contact the CEO. I would also tell him how much you spend annually with his company if you could estimate that.

    But beamer guy I really must comment that we get many more threads on here for most of the other supermarkets than Sainsbury so to draw a parallel that it's due to parking charges doesn't stack up. It's for all sorts of other reasons.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 15th Sep 17, 8:38 AM
    • 6,341 Posts
    • 8,150 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Absolutely right to contact the CEO. I would also tell him how much you spend annually with his company if you could estimate that.

    But beamer guy I really must comment that we get many more threads on here for most of the other supermarkets than Sainsbury so to draw a parallel that it's due to parking charges doesn't stack up. It's for all sorts of other reasons.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    ah, what was meant was not about on here

    Compared to customers shopping at Sainsbury's to say tesco and lidl, their sales have dropped

    If Sainsbury's has poor customer service as the OP explained,
    then they need to wake up
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 15th Sep 17, 8:42 AM
    • 6,341 Posts
    • 8,150 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Beamer - thank you, that's a good idea. Yesterday the customer helpline was called. A chap named Gary refused to help with getting the charge cancelled as he says he cannot go above the store manager.

    When we asked to speak with a supervisor he refused. We than asked for the name of the regional manager covering the Stanmore area - that was refused too and then Gary said he was going to put the phone down to end the call - and he did.
    Originally posted by dadsma
    And all this is part of your complaint to the ceo.

    Highly possible the CEO does not know he employs idiots

    Tell the CEO AS IT IS
    Last edited by beamerguy; 15-09-2017 at 8:49 AM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 15th Sep 17, 8:42 AM
    • 3,838 Posts
    • 5,411 Thanks
    Half_way
    to the original poster:
    keep an accurate time sheet of how much time you are spending on this.
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Humu
    • By Humu 16th Sep 17, 9:56 PM
    • 2 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Humu
    Dadsma - I am going through exactly the same thing with Stanmore Sainsburys. My wife slightly overstayed (15mins) although did a small midweek shop. I went into the store today with a receipt, still had it and some Muppet called Daniel (claimed to be the store manager) basically told me we had not spent enough for him to do anything about it ! The arrogance of the man was unreal, we shopped there every week, a fact he didn't seem to care about. I have been tweeted sainsburys all day and they simply say they can't cancel the ticket, which of course means they just don't want to. I am also going to email the CEO now, but not hopeful as it seems like they simply don't care about their reputation and will continue to loose customers. I may be lucky as my NTK feels like it doesn't comply with the POFA 2012.. so may just go down the appeal/Popla route.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Sep 17, 10:40 PM
    • 15,510 Posts
    • 24,233 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Write some bad stuff on their Facebook page, or Twitter account and see if they respond to that.

    As an aside, I visited Sainsbury's yesterday after having not been there for some time. Almost everything (same product) was significantly more expensive than any of their 3 competitors - Tesco, Morrisons and Asda. Not sure they're in the best place to suddenly turn all arsey with loyal customers.

    Plenty of other fish in the sea!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Sep 17, 11:19 PM
    • 51,522 Posts
    • 65,134 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Beamer - thank you, that's a good idea. Yesterday the customer helpline was called. A chap named Gary refused to help with getting the charge cancelled as he says he cannot go above the store manager.

    When we asked to speak with a supervisor he refused. We than asked for the name of the regional manager covering the Stanmore area - that was refused too and then Gary said he was going to put the phone down to end the call - and he did.
    Originally posted by dadsma
    Write a complaint letter to the CEO of Sainsburys and mention the above (shocking) and use your words, they are good:

    I think the 90 minute maximum would discourage overstaying. However to charge a regular customer £70 for inadvertently doing so and then offer to cancel it if they have spent greater than an unknown arbitrary amount is disgraceful in my view but we now do know that £24.74 is insufficient at that particular store.

    It reminds me of the story of the playwright George Bernard Shaw and the actress Sarah Bernhardt. It goes that GBS propositioned the actress, asking whether she would sleep with him for £10,000. She said "yes". GBS then asked whether she would sleep with him for £5 to which she replied "Certainly not!, what sort of woman do you take me for?" "We have already established that" retorted the playwright, "we are simply negotiating the lowest price".

    I wonder what Sainsbury's lowest price is and why it isn't published?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • dadsma
    • By dadsma 11th Oct 17, 10:52 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    dadsma
    Meanwhile, the vehicle's hirer has appealed to POPLA. The first appeal point and ECP's response follows. POPLA have invited the hirer to comment. I would be very grateful for the forum experts opinions to pass on to the hirer.

    POPLA Appeal Point 1.

    1. Euro Car Parks failed to meet the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA - A compliant Notice to Keeper or Hirer was never served on me - No keeper or hirer liability can apply

    1a. Failure to deliver a compliant Notice to Hirer

    In order to rely upon POFA to be able to hold me liable in my capacity as the vehicle’s hirer, Euro Car Parks Ltd. had to deliver a Notice to Hirer that fully met all of POFA’s strict requirements.

    The relevant provisions concerning hire vehicles are set out in Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of POFA; the conditions that the Creditor must meet in order to be able to hold the hirer liable for the charge are set out in Paragraph 14.

    Paragraph 14(2)(a) of Schedule 4 of POFA specifies that in addition to delivering a Notice to Hirer within the relevant period, the Creditor must also provide the hirer with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) (i.e. (a) a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b) a copy of the hire agreement; and (c) a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement), together with a copy of the Notice to Keeper (i.e. the notice that had originally been sent to the lease company (as Registered Keeper)).

    Paragraph 14(5) specifies that the Notice to Hirer must:
    (a) inform the hirer that by virtue of this paragraph any unpaid parking charges (being parking charges specified in the notice to keeper) may be recovered from the hirer;
    (b) refer the hirer to the information contained in the notice to keeper;
    (c) warn the hirer that if, after the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to hirer is given, the amount of unpaid parking charges referred to in the notice to keeper under paragraph 8(2)(f) or 9(2)(f) (as the case may be) has not been paid in full, the creditor will (if any applicable requirements are met) have the right to recover from the hirer so much of that amount as remains unpaid;
    (d) inform the hirer of any discount offered for prompt payment and the arrangements for the resolution of disputes or complaints that are available;
    (e) identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment may be made; and
    (f) specify the date on which the notice is sent (if it is sent by post) or given (in any other case).

    Despite being provided with my details as the vehicle’s hirer, Euro Car Parks Ltd failed to deliver a Notice to Hirer (compliant or otherwise) to me within the relevant period specified within Schedule 4 of POFA.

    Given its failure to comply with the requirements of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 of POFA as detailed above,Euro Car Parks Ltd’s claim against me (in my capacity as the vehicle’s hirer) must be determined as being invalid.

    1b. Failure to deliver a compliant Notice to Keeper

    Schedule 4 of POFA defines “keeper” as meaning the person by whom the vehicle is kept at the time the vehicle was parked, which in the case of a registered vehicle is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to be the registered keeper. In this case the contrary has been proved; in addition to being the vehicle’s hirer, I am also its keeper.

    Given that it has been proven that Lex was not the vehicle’s keeper (as defined under Schedule 4 of POFA), there are no circumstances where Lex may be liable for this Parking Charge.

    Furthermore, given that Euro Car Parks Ltd did not deliver a Notice to Keeper to me within the relevant period specified under Schedule 4 of POFA, Euro Car Parks Ltd has no valid claim against me (in my capacity as the vehicle's keeper).

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

    Here is Euro Car Parks evidence to POPLA who have invited the appellant to comment. I would welcome the forum’s expert opinions as I am sure it will be interesting and helpful;


    "Registered Keeper Details and Liability Trail

    Parking Charge Notice (PCN) xxxxxxxxx was issued on the xx/xx/2017 (date of event). As the car park is camera controlled the vehicle details were forwarded to the DVLA to obtain the registered keepers details. The DVLA had provided the following details as the registered keeper;

    Lex Autolease Ltd , Blake House, Hatchford Way, Birmingham, B26 3RZ

    Mr X then appealed the PCN and refused to name the driver on the day in question. As Mr X did not provide the full name of the driver the liability remains with Mr X as the hirer of the vehicle. Mr X also confirmed to be the keeper of the vehicle.

    Our PCN (Parking Charge Notice) is the first communication with the registered keeper – this is referred to as the Notice to Keeper or Notice to Owner

    The PCN (NTK/NTO) has been checked by both the BPA and the IPC and we have confirmation that our PCN (NTK/NTO) and has been approved as compliant with POFA

    The PCN (NTK/NTO) has been checked by Gladstones Solicitors who specialise in assisting private car park operators – legal advice and pre legal advice with regards signage and adhering to POFA and both code of practice

    Please be advised once the registered keeper has been sent the PCN (NTK/NTO) if there is no response, payment, appeal, serviceable address of the driver – ECP process a Notice To Keeper – this is a “reminder letter” and sent in reference to the PCN (NTK/NTO) that has not been responded to.

    If we are in receipt of a serviceable address of the driver – the PCN (NTK/NTO) is re-issued

    If the registered keeper is in receipt of the PCN (NTK/NTO) and has passed to the driver and the driver appeals – we will respond to the appeal strictly following the code and ensure any/all communication is sent to the driver (we would not at this stage re-issue the PCN)

    We have been advised that the above is standard practice for all private car park operators in regards to PCN (NTK/NTO) issued on Automatic Number Plate Recognition car parks

    ..The PCN was to the lease company who is the registered keeper. Their details have been provided by the DVLA. Mr X received the PCN through the lease company and decided to appeal the notice.

    The lease company did not appeal the PCN requesting to transfer the liability and therefore did not provide a copy of the hire agreement.

    Mr X confirmed to be the keeper of the vehicle, however he refused to provide the name of the driver. Therefore the liability remains with him as the keeper of the vehicle/hirer.

    Euro Car Parks do not need to provide evidence of who was driving the vehicle, it is the registered keeper’s/hirer’s responsibility to inform them of the full name and address within 28 days beginning with the day after the notice was given.

    If the full amount remains unpaid, under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (‘The Act’), Euro Car Parks have the right subject of the Act to recover from the keeper of the vehicle at the time it was parked so much of that amount which remains unpaid."
    Last edited by dadsma; 12-10-2017 at 5:47 PM.
    • dadsma
    • By dadsma 12th Oct 17, 6:03 PM
    • 71 Posts
    • 77 Thanks
    dadsma
    I would be very interested to get Edna Basher's and C-M's opinion on post #18 if possible.
    • Ralph-y
    • By Ralph-y 12th Oct 17, 6:34 PM
    • 2,373 Posts
    • 2,898 Thanks
    Ralph-y
    I think C-M is away at the min ......

    Ralph
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