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Results: Could you live without cash?

Yes

39.71% • 54 votes

No

60.29% • 82 votes

You may not vote on this poll

136 votes in total.

  • FIRST POST
    • MSE Andrea
    • By MSE Andrea 12th Sep 17, 12:03 PM
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    MSE Andrea
    Could you live without cash?
    • #1
    • 12th Sep 17, 12:03 PM
    Could you live without cash? 12th Sep 17 at 12:03 PM

    Hi everyone!

    The BBC thinks Sweden is coming close to being a cashless society.

    Do you think that would work in the UK?

    Could you live without cash?

    Could your kids? Do they need to learn about all money including coins?

    Do you think it's inevitable we'll eventually go cashless?

    What do you use coins for now that you don't think you could do without if they didn't exist?


    Why Sweden is close to becoming a cashless economy


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    Last edited by MSE Andrea; 12-09-2017 at 12:35 PM.

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Page 4
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 14th Sep 17, 2:29 PM
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    onomatopoeia99
    -every aspect of your life (your alcohol intake, the type of films you watch, the charities you support etc) becomes easily available to the right bidder. Are you sure you're happy for insurers and employers to see all this? Do you really think this data is truly safe, or kept for benevolent purposes?
    Originally posted by Out, Vile Jelly
    So who, apart from my bank and the recipients of the payments, can see which charities I support by direct debit at present? There is no cash involved now, a cashless society would not change this.

    I am absolutely certain that my insurer (Direct Line) and my employer cannot. However, I'm prepared to bet real money, say £10 to the charity of your choice, if you can provide evidence beyond reasonable doubt that an insurer or my employer has access to the history of charitable donations on my bank account.
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • usefulmale
    • By usefulmale 14th Sep 17, 3:17 PM
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    usefulmale
    So who, apart from my bank and the recipients of the payments, can see which charities I support by direct debit at present? There is no cash involved now, a cashless society would not change this.

    I am absolutely certain that my insurer (Direct Line) and my employer cannot. However, I'm prepared to bet real money, say £10 to the charity of your choice, if you can provide evidence beyond reasonable doubt that an insurer or my employer has access to the history of charitable donations on my bank account.
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99
    Nobody is saying that the transactions are visible right now. However, you can be sure that the records are kept right now though.

    All it would take after the demise of cash is a change to bank account T&C's to allow anyone prepared to pay for access to those records. Just like they do when they shovel off the data to Experian etc.

    What exactly will you do about it then?
    Originally Posted by MSE Forum Team
    We’ve had to remove your signature because what you wrote was true and sensible and there's no room for that here.
    • borkid
    • By borkid 14th Sep 17, 3:39 PM
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    borkid
    You can make payments FROM your phone without a signal. Like I said, I'd expect a 'wallet' of cash stored on your phone - maybe in a digital currency like bitcoin.

    I've seen credit cards with buttons and displays - maybe the tech could be shrunk so small you won't even need a phone - just your card.


    Originally posted by ringo_24601
    I didn't realise that. What happens is the info is stored until a signal is obtained?

    I'd not be happy with that though if anything went wrong imagine trying to claim the money back. I quite happily pay my window cleaner via BACS and happy to have money paid to me that way. CC OK but not contactless. I've had instances in the past where the wrong amount has been entered and I've noticed mainly because it takes a little time to enter the pin. I'm sure some people don't pay enough attention when using contactless cards.

    If at some time in the future we went to a completely cashless society then I suppose I'd have to adapt if there was an automatic refund incases of a mistakes then I might be happier but I guess the banks will always have the final say.
    • ringo_24601
    • By ringo_24601 14th Sep 17, 3:51 PM
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    ringo_24601
    I didn't realise that. What happens is the info is stored until a signal is obtained?

    I'd not be happy with that though if anything went wrong imagine trying to claim the money back. I quite happily pay my window cleaner via BACS and happy to have money paid to me that way. CC OK but not contactless. I've had instances in the past where the wrong amount has been entered and I've noticed mainly because it takes a little time to enter the pin. I'm sure some people don't pay enough attention when using contactless cards.

    If at some time in the future we went to a completely cashless society then I suppose I'd have to adapt if there was an automatic refund incases of a mistakes then I might be happier but I guess the banks will always have the final say.
    Originally posted by borkid
    It works just like how a credit/debit card works without a signal - it holds details of the card and the retailer instructs the bank to do the work. The app (in my case Android pay) holds details of the 'mobile bank card' ID.

    There's no need for a signal from the phone other than to the card reader.
    • borkid
    • By borkid 14th Sep 17, 10:43 PM
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    borkid
    It works just like how a credit/debit card works without a signal - it holds details of the card and the retailer instructs the bank to do the work. The app (in my case Android pay) holds details of the 'mobile bank card' ID.

    There's no need for a signal from the phone other than to the card reader.
    Originally posted by ringo_24601
    At some point though the details from the phone has to be sent to the bank presumably when a signal is received. Ofcourse it could be connect4ed via wifi to the sellers phone.
    • onomatopoeia99
    • By onomatopoeia99 14th Sep 17, 10:47 PM
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    onomatopoeia99
    Nobody is saying that the transactions are visible right now. However, you can be sure that the records are kept right now though.

    All it would take after the demise of cash is a change to bank account T&C's to allow anyone prepared to pay for access to those records. Just like they do when they shovel off the data to Experian etc.

    What exactly will you do about it then?
    Originally posted by usefulmale
    Records are inevitably kept, because without a record of transactions on my account, there would be no bank statements or online banking.

    My credit report has no information about charitable donations on it from the information that Experian have, no matter what the bank have shoveled at them. If I had any defaults, I woud expect it to contain them, but I don't.

    If my bank starts selling my transaction history, I will move bank. They won't all start, because there will be a market for people that don't want this information sold and organisations will step in to supply to that market.

    I can see you're concerned about privacy. What will you start doing when your ISP allows GCHQ to monitor all of your communications? Or blocks certain websites from a list created by an unaccountable body, in a way that you cannot override or even see? Most of them already do at least one of those things ...
    INTP, nerd, libertarian and scifi geek.
    Home is where my books are.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 14th Sep 17, 11:07 PM
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    Savvy_Sue
    You can make payments FROM your phone without a signal.
    Originally posted by ringo_24601
    Great, apart from the sizeable number of people walking around either completely without a mobile device of any kind, or with a non-smart mobile, or with an allegedly smart mobile which crashes if you try to load or use any app without first deleting one of the others ...

    Mind you, I have wondered how card payments on planes work in this wireless age ... never having been on a plane which had wifi!
    Still knitting!
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    • phillw
    • By phillw 14th Sep 17, 11:15 PM
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    phillw
    The Queen seems to manage ( never seen her put her hand in her purse )
    Originally posted by Ganga
    She has people to do that for her. But the Queen does a lot of things you've never seen her do.

    Mind you, I have wondered how card payments on planes work in this wireless age ... never having been on a plane which had wifi!
    Originally posted by Savvy_Sue
    When the airlines can figure out how to make money out of it then magically it becomes safe. Some air planes have had micro cells added, so they can charge you £10 a minute.
    Last edited by phillw; 14-09-2017 at 11:17 PM.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 15th Sep 17, 1:30 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    BTW, tonight another shop with a sign up saying "sorry, cash only today, line fault". So that's the cinema, the local Coop, a discount bookshop - all within the space of a week. And scattered across a sizeable city.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 1 shawl, 2 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure, 1 sock ...
    Current projects: 1 shawl, t'other sock (just about to turn the heel!)
    • Out, Vile Jelly
    • By Out, Vile Jelly 15th Sep 17, 11:10 AM
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    Out, Vile Jelly
    Oh dear, I've just purchased a large amount of booze for a party. I paid by card. Will my employer find out and think I have a booze problem?
    Originally posted by zagfles
    In future it is entirely possible that companies will be allowed access to your purchase history. It will be sold to you as "allowing companies to provide personalised product specification tailored to your individual needs". You'll be told that you shouldn't be worried about employers looking at it if you've nothing to hide.

    Err...use a card? We're talking "cashless", not "cardless". So stick a spare card where you stick the spare note.
    Originally posted by zagfles
    A £20 note can be folded up and tucked into a shoe; I have done this on many occasion when going out wearing just a dress with a small handbag. You can only store a card somewhere flat and where it won't get scratched. If I drunkenly lose my spare £20 note, that's annoying, but no big deal. If I lose a bank card I have to cancel it and arrange a replacement, and potentially risk fraudulent spending.
    They are an EYESORES!!!!
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 15th Sep 17, 3:05 PM
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    zagfles
    In future it is entirely possible that companies will be allowed access to your purchase history. It will be sold to you as "allowing companies to provide personalised product specification tailored to your individual needs". You'll be told that you shouldn't be worried about employers looking at it if you've nothing to hide.
    Originally posted by Out, Vile Jelly
    "Sold to you" implies a choice. So anyone paranoid about this has a choice.
    A £20 note can be folded up and tucked into a shoe; I have done this on many occasion when going out wearing just a dress with a small handbag. You can only store a card somewhere flat and where it won't get scratched. If I drunkenly lose my spare £20 note, that's annoying, but no big deal. If I lose a bank card I have to cancel it and arrange a replacement, and potentially risk fraudulent spending.
    You lose a £20 note, you lose £20. Lose a card and you lose nothing, the bank takes the hit for any fraud unless you did something grossly negligent like write your PIN number on the card.
    • usefulmale
    • By usefulmale 15th Sep 17, 3:30 PM
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    usefulmale
    If my bank starts selling my transaction history, I will move bank. They won't all start, because there will be a market for people that don't want this information sold and organisations will step in to supply to that market.
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99
    I can't see banks turning down a valueable revenue stream, can you? Unless you are happy being charged a similar price for the promise they WON'T pass on your details.

    I can see you're concerned about privacy. What will you start doing when your ISP allows GCHQ to monitor all of your communications?
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99
    They probably already do. Whenever I can get hold of a valid email address for anyone at GCHQ, I copy them in on every email I send. I admit that I am surprised I haven't had a 'visit' yet.

    Or blocks certain websites from a list created by an unaccountable body, in a way that you cannot override or even see? Most of them already do at least one of those things ...
    Originally posted by onomatopoeia99
    If I can't see websites on the list, I probably wouldn't know they are doing it, would I?

    However, not being able to see some websites is a minor irritation compared to my employer (or any other party for that matter) being able to buy my transaction details.
    Originally Posted by MSE Forum Team
    We’ve had to remove your signature because what you wrote was true and sensible and there's no room for that here.
    • zagfles
    • By zagfles 15th Sep 17, 3:45 PM
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    zagfles
    I can't see banks turning down a valueable revenue stream, can you?
    Originally posted by usefulmale
    PPI was a very valuable revenue stream for banks. Strange how they seemed to have turned that one down in recent years.
    Unless you are happy being charged a similar price for the promise they WON'T pass on your details.

    They probably already do. Whenever I can get hold of a valid email address for anyone at GCHQ, I copy them in on every email I send. I admit that I am surprised I haven't had a 'visit' yet.
    Why, do you visit people who send you junk mail? You'll just be on their spammers list, they've got serious threats to deal with.
    Last edited by zagfles; 15-09-2017 at 3:48 PM.
    • Primrose
    • By Primrose 15th Sep 17, 4:06 PM
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    Primrose
    Maybe the black market for cash traders would disappear if there existed a form the purchaser had to compulsorarily complete and email to HMRC giving the name, address of Trader and the amount and date paid.

    It might be an administrative nightmare but the trader would then know an audit trail existed so they fail to keep accurate accounts at their peril.
    • MagicMoneyTree
    • By MagicMoneyTree 15th Sep 17, 4:35 PM
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    MagicMoneyTree
    So long as businesses can charge back the additional cost of accepting card payments, then I don't see any legitimate reason not to. Offering big discounts for cash payment is rife in many trades, with everyone involved knowing the true reason is to avoid tax. It's time this kind of thing became socially unacceptable in the same way drink driving did a while back. Whilst it isn't killing anybody, tax dodging is stealing from all tax payers.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 15th Sep 17, 6:01 PM
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    badmemory
    I am not sure how many of these are actually tax dodging though. I have a friend who owns a business that many years ago was renowned for the cash in hand thing. When he gets a customer who asks how much for cash he tells them the VAT inclusive price they think they've got a deal & HMRC gets their VAT. If you are properly established frankly it just isn't worth the risk.
    • Mrs_Ryan
    • By Mrs_Ryan 15th Sep 17, 11:36 PM
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    Mrs_Ryan
    I would happily live without cash- I hate the stuff. I have a smartcard pass for the bus, and I use my debit card or Apple Pay for virtually everything. I even pay for my Slimming World membership 6 weeks at a time with my card on the nifty little machine linked to the consultant's phone. Now my bingo club accepts debit cards I don't even need to take cash out to play bingo.
    If I ever have cash I generally get to the bank ASAP to pay it in- i won £335 on Sunday night at bingo and come Monday morning I was at the bank first thing eager to get rid of it into my account. Had to call out an emergency locksmith when the lock broke today and he only accepted cash which was a pain!
    OH on the other hand pays cash for everything: he has a couple of debit cards but only uses them on rare occasions.
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    • motorguy
    • By motorguy 16th Sep 17, 4:20 PM
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    motorguy
    I am not sure how many of these are actually tax dodging though.

    If you are properly established frankly it just isn't worth the risk.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    Most of the window cleaner / handyman / car wash / market stall businesses arent "established" per se, and are more than happy to pocket cash rather than pay tax and VAT on it

    Granted, an established painter or a tradesman may not want to take the risk, especially if dealing with businesses, but many will. A couple of hundred into your back pocket each week is fairly untraceable.
    You are not special. You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake.
    • AElene
    • By AElene 16th Sep 17, 7:11 PM
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    AElene
    I use cash for almost everything. Today I did some photocopying at the local convenience store for which I needed cash, though I suppose I could have paid with a card had the option been there. Then there's the launderette, and local shops where you don't want to pay with a card when it's just small amounts.

    Also, it's so much easier to keep track of your spending and bank balance when you just use cash.
    Ælene
    • coffeehound
    • By coffeehound 16th Sep 17, 8:10 PM
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    coffeehound
    A fairly superficial point but cash must be a major spreader of bacteria and whatnot. A lot (can't remember the %) of notes test positive for cocaine, meaning they've also been up someone's filthy hooter. Then there's the cashpoint keyboards. Using contactless cards/phone avoids a lot of that grime at a stroke.
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