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  • FIRST POST
    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 11th Sep 17, 10:53 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Ferritt
    Sip PCN LBCCC received from Glastones
    • #1
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:53 PM
    Sip PCN LBCCC received from Glastones 11th Sep 17 at 10:53 PM
    Hi,

    As the title suggests a LBCCC came through the post this morning regarding a PCN from Sip dated march of this year. Its for my partner and as shes so stressed out thinking she may be taken to court I'm seeking advice/help to sort it out. Basically the story is this:

    She's been parking on and off for the last year and a bit in the same SiP carpark while at work. The all day parking charge is/was £2. Now as she's been using the carpark for so long its become routine to pay the £2 in the meter and off she goes to work. At some point SiP have increased this all day charge to £2.50 and without checking she's paid £2 as normal and gone on her way completely unaware that she now hasn't paid enough to cover the all day charge.

    The signage at the carpark is very confusing aswell as rather than make new signs to show the increase of 50p they've cheekily added a very (and I mean very small) "50" next to the £2 text. There isnt a decimal point either so i suppose it could be mistaken for £250 all day charge!! We have plenty of photos to show this from different parts of the carpark.

    So the letters came and we ignored them all but mistakenly we did reply to the 2nd but last one stating that we weren't willing to disclose who the driver was and we inclosed pictures of the signage as they letter that SiP sent kept going on about "in accordance to the signage provided".

    We got a response saying it was to late to appeal, then no word from them until today (Gladstones LBCCC). As the norm it states to pay them (Gladstones) within 14 days. The letter was dated the 30th so that gives us 3 days to respond!!!

    I've checked over the newbie section and looked at the some response templates but I'm at a loss as what to use. I don't want to send a letter to them that shows I haven't a clue.

    They haven't provided or said they have evidence that my partner was the driver etc.

    Any help/advice would be greatly received.

    Thanks
Page 1
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 11th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    • 1,162 Posts
    • 2,317 Thanks
    Lamilad
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    Look at the newbies thread again, it tells you how to respond to an LBCCC... and you DO need to respond.

    At some point SiP have increased this all day charge to £2.50 and without checking she's paid £2 as normal and gone on her way completely unaware that she now hasn't paid enough to cover the all day charge.
    The IPC code of practice requires it's operators to make customers aware of any changes to the T&Cs via additional/ more prominent signage

    The signage at the carpark is very confusing aswell as rather than make new signs to show the increase of 50p they've cheekily added a very (and I mean very small) "50" next to the £2 text. There isnt a decimal point either so i suppose it could be mistaken for £250 all day charge!! We have plenty of photos to show this from different parts of the carpark.
    This is significant and should definitely form the key part of your response. Their cr4ppy attempt to amend their signage will not go down well in court.

    Make clear that their signage is illegible and incapable of forming a contract.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Sep 17, 11:20 PM
    • 15,423 Posts
    • 24,121 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:20 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:20 PM
    Get photos urgently of the amended signage - very important. SIP are becoming more litigious, so you need physical evidence to back up your position on this.

    Respond robustly to the Gladstones LBCCC by learning how to do so from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #2.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 12th Sep 17, 12:23 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    • #4
    • 12th Sep 17, 12:23 AM
    • #4
    • 12th Sep 17, 12:23 AM
    Thanks the quick replys. Heres my response letter:

    Re - Your letter before Claim Re - PCN xxxxxxxx
    This is a formal response to your ‘Letter Before Court Action’ dated 30/8/17 but received 11/9/17.
    Further to my last contact with SiP Ltd I would like to state that I do not nor have I ever gave my consent for my personally data to be passed to any 3rd party regarding this PCN, therefore you have no basis whatsoever to write to the registered keeper , except for the single purpose allowed under the DVLA KADOE rules.
    You haven't supplied any evidence photo or otherwise of the driver or a ‘contract’ nor have you clearly set out the basis at to which you are attempting to hold me liable. The driver’s identity will not be supplied. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were. As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4 of POFA 2012.!

    I have physical evidence of the so called ‘appropriate signage’ at the PCN location which was previously sent to Sip Ltd. The IPC code of practice states that all customers must be made aware of any changes to the T&C’s via additional/prominent signage. The ignorance on SiP Ltd part to do this and the fact customers weren’t/aren’t properly made aware of these changes are apparent in the photographic evidence I have, namely the use of unreadable font sizes and a clear lack of decimal points on basic price figures.

    You have no cause of action against me as registered keeper, should you proceed with a claim I will file a counter-claim for not less than £500 in compensation for distress caused by your unwarranted demands arising from misuse of the data you obtained from the DVLA for one purpose, yet are now processing it for another purpose not covered by the KADOE regulations.

    I expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm that the charge is cancelled. Should you fail to cancel this PCN and/or pursue a baseless claim without supplying any evidence of any breach of a relevant contract or relevant obligation, or photographs, or the contract, or your basis for pursuing a registered keeper outwith the POFA 2012, you may consider this adequate notice of my intention to sue SiP Ltd, for the significant distress your actions have caused.

    Yours Faithfully


    Thoughts??

    Thanks
    Last edited by Ferritt; 12-09-2017 at 12:25 AM. Reason: spelling
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 12th Sep 17, 10:59 AM
    • 823 Posts
    • 946 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #5
    • 12th Sep 17, 10:59 AM
    • #5
    • 12th Sep 17, 10:59 AM
    KADOE has no regulations, its purely a contract.

    the line about "the driver was entitled to park" usually comes from Residential cases. Which I am assuming is not the case here. If the tariff had not been paid then clearly they werent "entitled" to park there....
    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 12th Sep 17, 11:02 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    • #6
    • 12th Sep 17, 11:02 AM
    • #6
    • 12th Sep 17, 11:02 AM
    Ok thanks I'll remove that from the response letter. Many thanks
    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 12th Sep 17, 11:07 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    • #7
    • 12th Sep 17, 11:07 AM
    • #7
    • 12th Sep 17, 11:07 AM
    Also should i include the evidence of pictures that I have?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Sep 17, 11:58 AM
    • 15,423 Posts
    • 24,121 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 12th Sep 17, 11:58 AM
    • #8
    • 12th Sep 17, 11:58 AM
    Also should i include the evidence of pictures that I have?
    Originally posted by Ferritt
    Keep those as evidence should it actually get to a court claims stage. Showing them to Gladstones will have no effect.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 27th Sep 17, 6:32 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    • #9
    • 27th Sep 17, 6:32 PM
    • #9
    • 27th Sep 17, 6:32 PM
    So today i received a claim form. Whats steps do I need to take now?

    I have photos of the "poor signage" but I'm stuck as to my defence prep??

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Sep 17, 12:09 AM
    • 51,440 Posts
    • 65,043 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    So today i received a claim form. Whats steps do I need to take now?

    I have photos of the "poor signage" but I'm stuck as to my defence prep??

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Ferritt
    Read post #2 of NEWBIES PLEASE READ THESE FAQS FIRST, and do the AOS first (all explained there).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 2nd Oct 17, 9:30 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    So i've just submitted my AOS. I assume now I start my defence and submit it online? Does it have to be legally worded? I have taken better pictures of the rubbish signage etc..

    Its all abit confusing...

    Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Oct 17, 9:33 PM
    • 4,411 Posts
    • 2,728 Thanks
    KeithP
    So i've just submitted my AOS. I assume now I start my defence and submit it online? Does it have to be legally worded? I have taken better pictures of the rubbish signage etc..

    Its all abit confusing...

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Ferritt
    Have another look at the post immediately above yours and read the post mentioned there.
    There are many links to defences and sample layouts are shown.
    In fact all your questions are answered there.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 17, 9:34 PM
    • 51,440 Posts
    • 65,043 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I assume now I start my defence and submit it online? Does it have to be legally worded?
    Yes it has to be properly set out with headings and in the third person from you as 'The Defendant'. Luckily you have examples to copy from, in the NEWBIES thread; we don't want you to write it from scratch. And no, it is not submitted online on MCOL.

    I have taken better pictures of the rubbish signage etc..
    Good, but you will know from reading the NEWBIES thread that evidence/photos are not filed yet.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 2nd Oct 17, 9:51 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    thanks for the help and info. One last thing. Do i need to complete the defence form now or should I do this when I have my defence draft? I didnt want to click on the option and be asked for information I don't have to hand.

    Thanks
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 2nd Oct 17, 10:09 PM
    • 4,411 Posts
    • 2,728 Thanks
    KeithP
    thanks for the help and info. One last thing. Do i need to complete the defence form now or should I do this when I have my defence draft? I didnt want to click on the option and be asked for information I don't have to hand.

    Thanks
    Originally posted by Ferritt
    What 'defence form' are you talking about?

    Have you read this Bargepole thread?
    It's linked from post#2 of the NEWBIES thread.

    In there you will see detailed guidance on what you are trying to do now.

    In particular:
    Do NOT put anything in the 'Defence and Counterclaim' text box, not even a full stop.
    You really need to read the whole of that post before doing anything else.
    Last edited by KeithP; 02-10-2017 at 10:28 PM.
    .
    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 2nd Oct 17, 10:35 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    Many thanks. I didnt spot that. Time to get prepping and write up everything.

    At no point have I stated who the driver was as all correspondents from Sip and gladstones have been asking me to give the drivers details. I'm I right in thinking that in my write up I still do not give details of the driver and argue that I'm not liable being the registered keeper? Also at any point now or in court do I legally have to say who the driver was??

    Thanks again
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 2nd Oct 17, 10:41 PM
    • 6,328 Posts
    • 8,139 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Many thanks. I didnt spot that. Time to get prepping and write up everything.

    At no point have I stated who the driver was as all correspondents from Sip and gladstones have been asking me to give the drivers details. I'm I right in thinking that in my write up I still do not give details of the driver and argue that I'm not liable being the registered keeper? Also at any point now or in court do I legally have to say who the driver was??

    Thanks again
    Originally posted by Ferritt
    Just a Gladstones try on ????

    YOU ARE THE REGISTERED KEEPER .... NEVER THE DRIVER
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Oct 17, 11:40 PM
    • 51,440 Posts
    • 65,043 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I'm I right in thinking that in my write up I still do not give details of the driver and argue that I'm not liable being the registered keeper?
    It's up to you, depends on what your defence is about. Some strong cases are much better argued by the driver, and it's easier to stand up at a hearing and explain as driver.

    Also at any point now or in court do I legally have to say who the driver was??
    Well noooo...but if a Judge actually asked, you'd find it hard not to answer and would look like you were hiding material facts. Decide now how you will handle this. SIP Notice to Keeper letters are fairly compliant with the POFA aren't they (or did you never get one?).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Ferritt
    • By Ferritt 3rd Oct 17, 8:56 AM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ferritt
    I never got a POFA. I suppose I'll argue as the driver. It's actually my partner's claim but I'm trying to sort it for her as she's stressed out.

    I have afew days off next week so I'll get this all written up.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 3rd Oct 17, 9:09 AM
    • 7,374 Posts
    • 6,421 Thanks
    The Deep
    This is, in effect, a claim over a 50p underpayment. Surely the Law does not concern itself with such trifles.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
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