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  • FIRST POST
    • Jacksmum26
    • By Jacksmum26 11th Sep 17, 3:53 PM
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    Jacksmum26
    Forced sleep ins
    • #1
    • 11th Sep 17, 3:53 PM
    Forced sleep ins 11th Sep 17 at 3:53 PM
    I work in a care setting at the moment we have waking nights and shift patterns, our manager has taken on a new service that has sleep ins that don't count towards your contracted hours - so for example I am contracted to 30 hours a week and pick up over time as needed. But we have been informed they are not only changing where we work but that we now HAVE to do sleep ins and these will not be included in our hours, so if I do 2 sleep ins I will still need to do my 30 hours in the week as well as the sleep ins. When I started the job I didn't agree to sleep ins, can they now force us to do sleep ins and change our shifts like this? We all have out side commitments so doing an extra 10-20 away from home every week is causing us all a lot of worry and stress.
    Our union rep isn't available for another week ( holiday )
    Can any one give us some advice? This is causing so much stress that I'm worried people will just walk.

    Any advice would be great before we all have a melt down
Page 1
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 11th Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    • 2,743 Posts
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    gettingtheresometime
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    Wasn't there a ruling recently whereby staff could claim back pay for sleep ins where previously they hadn't been paid?


    Wouldn't your employer's stance go against this?


    I don't know much about this so sorry if I've mudded the waters) but I'm sure that someone with far better knowledge will answer shortly
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


    Next on the list - the Argos Card!
    • molerat
    • By molerat 11th Sep 17, 4:21 PM
    • 16,987 Posts
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    molerat
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 17, 4:21 PM
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 17, 4:21 PM
    The ruling was over pay but the situation is still unclear. Forcing you to do sleep ins on top of your contracted hours is a contractual situation. Being paid for it is an employment law matter.

    http://www.tayloremmet.co.uk/blogsite/should-workers-be-paid-to-sleep/
    but
    http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2017/07/26/government-bows-care-provider-pressure-sleep-payments/
    Last edited by molerat; 11-09-2017 at 4:30 PM.
    www.helpforheroes.org.uk/donations.html
    • mac.d
    • By mac.d 11th Sep 17, 4:39 PM
    • 458 Posts
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    mac.d
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 17, 4:39 PM
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 17, 4:39 PM
    I think they can change where you work depending on the needs of the service, and there's nothing you can do about that. Who is going to be doing the waking night shifts where you are currently working though? Is everyone who works there being moved to the new service? There should be some allowances made so you can cut your contracted hours if you are going to be doing sleep-ins instead.

    You will get paid for the sleep-ins, even though it won't be part of your contracted hours. I think there are lots of variances in the way people are being paid for sleep-ins, and it also depends on what has been agreed with the local council, but you will still get paid for doing them.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Sep 17, 5:47 PM
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    sangie595
    • #5
    • 11th Sep 17, 5:47 PM
    • #5
    • 11th Sep 17, 5:47 PM
    Can they force you to do this? The short answer is yes. If you have less than two years service, then you do it or you get dismissed. If you have more than two years, you will do it or else, at best, you will be made redundant. At worst they might enforce contractual changes because these are necessary changes to manage the business. In the end, the requirements of the service are what sustain the employment. The availability or desired work location of employees will never trump that. This will happen. The only question is whether you will still have a job when it does. If you cannot commit to these changes, then the least painful option for you is to get another job.

    As others have stated, you would have to be paid at least the minimum wage for any sleep over shifts.
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 11th Sep 17, 5:49 PM
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    dawyldthing
    • #6
    • 11th Sep 17, 5:49 PM
    • #6
    • 11th Sep 17, 5:49 PM
    Ive done sleep ins for a number of years. They've recently increased but they aren't part of your core hours as you don't get paid hourly but get a set rate. I should imagine you'll all dib up in until it's fully recruited to be honest
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 36.5lbs lost 40.5lbs to go.
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 10 weeks in -28.5lbs
    3/9 to NYE 2.5lbs down / 12.5lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 11th Sep 17, 5:51 PM
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    dawyldthing
    • #7
    • 11th Sep 17, 5:51 PM
    • #7
    • 11th Sep 17, 5:51 PM
    Can they force you to do this? The short answer is yes. If you have less than two years service, then you do it or you get dismissed. If you have more than two years, you will do it or else, at best, you will be made redundant. At worst they might enforce contractual changes because these are necessary changes to manage the business. In the end, the requirements of the service are what sustain the employment. The availability or desired work location of employees will never trump that. This will happen. The only question is whether you will still have a job when it does. If you cannot commit to these changes, then the least painful option for you is to get another job.

    As others have stated, you would have to be paid at least the minimum wage for any sleep over shifts.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    It's still going through. As far as I know it's still being challenged by care providers as many of us have 9 hour 'sleeps' but in reality get paid around 5 hours for it. They have increased it a fair amount to be fair though
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 36.5lbs lost 40.5lbs to go.
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 10 weeks in -28.5lbs
    3/9 to NYE 2.5lbs down / 12.5lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 11th Sep 17, 6:24 PM
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    sangie595
    • #8
    • 11th Sep 17, 6:24 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Sep 17, 6:24 PM
    It's still going through. As far as I know it's still being challenged by care providers as many of us have 9 hour 'sleeps' but in reality get paid around 5 hours for it. They have increased it a fair amount to be fair though
    Originally posted by dawyldthing
    An EAT has ruled. In 2013. It cannot now be appealed, and so it is law. The "challenges" are whines by the care providers to the gov't. Nothing more. This is law. Until the law is changed it remains law and people are entitled by law to at least the minimum wage. The reason why it is back in the headlines is because HRMC started to enforce the law, as is their remit. The government have agreed a temporary stay of the enforcement - which means fines handed down by HMRC for breaking the wages laws.

    As for any employer who is not paying their employees for sleep ins, they are breaking the law and the usual recourse is available to them where an employer had failed to pay what they owe.

    The only matter that is currently still subject to ongoing cases related to the entitlement to back pay. The primary case, against MENCAP will now not proceed as they have reached agreements with the union. The second one was referred back to the tribunal. As far as I am aware, there are no other cases pending.

    The only way that an employer can claim exception is if the total paid to staff amounts to at least the NMW/ living wage across all the hours worked, including the sleep ins. That would satisfy the requirements of the law. So if the employers want to pay significantly higher wages, then they can avoid having to pay for sleep ins. I doubt they'll be doing that.
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 11th Sep 17, 10:54 PM
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    dawyldthing
    • #9
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:54 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:54 PM
    https://www.facebook.com/Mencap/posts/10155647573626354:0

    Just seen this which goes with what you say sangie. So if they do decide to back pay how long will it take? As if it all has to be minimum wage, paid back over 6 years I recogn I could be due a very tidy sum indeed. Interesting they are paying national minimum wage now though as we still aren't. It's been increased a bit but still not near minimum wage
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 36.5lbs lost 40.5lbs to go.
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 10 weeks in -28.5lbs
    3/9 to NYE 2.5lbs down / 12.5lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 11th Sep 17, 11:00 PM
    • 2,534 Posts
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    dawyldthing
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40648952

    Due in September chricks it would be like winning the lotto if it's in one go
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 36.5lbs lost 40.5lbs to go.
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 10 weeks in -28.5lbs
    3/9 to NYE 2.5lbs down / 12.5lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • elsien
    • By elsien 11th Sep 17, 11:07 PM
    • 15,044 Posts
    • 37,612 Thanks
    elsien
    The problem is that many local authorities aren't paying providers the extra. And nice though it would be to get the back pay, I'm more concerned about my pension - I seem to recall mencap had a bit of a black hole in their pension plan not long ago and as my time there was on the final salary scheme I'd hate to see it go down the pan if their budget goes completely up the Swanee.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 11th Sep 17, 11:24 PM
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    dawyldthing
    https://www.local.gov.uk/sites/default/files/documents/LGA%20briefing%20on%20payment%20of%20sleep-in%20shifts%20in%20social%20care_August%202017.pdf
    Sounds like we will hear more in October but it's being challenged next March. Will be interesting to see what happens
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 36.5lbs lost 40.5lbs to go.
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 10 weeks in -28.5lbs
    3/9 to NYE 2.5lbs down / 12.5lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 11th Sep 17, 11:27 PM
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    dawyldthing
    They do get a lot more in than what they are paying out. I think one I've just read said it should be £60 a shift, so they would still make £10 per sleep in profit, which admittedly isn't a lot but hourly it's around £5 odd an hour per hour worked so it adds up (minus the outgoing so though). Pensions should be seperate but I think there's a lot of black holes in pensions as no ones really paying in what they get out.
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 36.5lbs lost 40.5lbs to go.
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 10 weeks in -28.5lbs
    3/9 to NYE 2.5lbs down / 12.5lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Sep 17, 7:30 AM
    • 3,721 Posts
    • 6,084 Thanks
    sangie595
    https://www.facebook.com/Mencap/posts/10155647573626354:0

    Just seen this which goes with what you say sangie. So if they do decide to back pay how long will it take? As if it all has to be minimum wage, paid back over 6 years I recogn I could be due a very tidy sum indeed. Interesting they are paying national minimum wage now though as we still aren't. It's been increased a bit but still not near minimum wage
    Originally posted by dawyldthing
    In that case you and your colleagues may wish to have a discussion about why they are breaking the law?

    To be honest, I suspect that the ruling may compromise. Iniquitous though the system of not paying was, the employers were, to the best of their knowledge, complying with the law as it stood at that time. There have been similar cases in the past where some back pay was agreed, but not back six years. However, anyone who isn't now paying is likely to get less sympathy given that the law is now clear on this matter.
    • mac.d
    • By mac.d 12th Sep 17, 10:00 AM
    • 458 Posts
    • 368 Thanks
    mac.d
    AFAIK, even with care companies that are willing to follow the ruling, the full payments aren't going to be made until such time as the local council agrees additional funding. And this is now on hold until September at least as they try and figure out how it is meant to be paid.

    The other options the councils are looking at is removing sleep-ins from some services (that is what is feared, and in some cases already happened, as per the BBC link dawdlything' posted).
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 12th Sep 17, 10:38 AM
    • 37,648 Posts
    • 33,956 Thanks
    Savvy_Sue
    Our union rep isn't available for another week ( holiday )
    Originally posted by Jacksmum26
    If it's urgent, contact your regional or head office and ask for advice.
    Still knitting!
    Completed: 1 adult cardigan, 3 baby jumpers, 1 shawl, 2 pairs baby bootees,
    1 Wise Man Knitivity figure, 1 sock ...
    Current projects: 1 shawl, t'other sock (just about to turn the heel!)
    • dawyldthing
    • By dawyldthing 12th Sep 17, 10:45 AM
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    dawyldthing
    I don't think they should be fined but it would be nice if they did back pay it as I know where I am they could have paid the right rate but kept it as profit. Yeah I could have upset the apple cart but was just thankful for a job. If they do back pay it I won't be saying no to it as it will run into several thousands if over the whole 6 years. Even now we're not getting hourly rate just an increase in sleep in pay, but I gathered something must have been happening. (I don't work for mencap, just came across the link but had a look on my employers page and they too have something up about it so will be interesting following it.)
    My targets to end 2018:
    1) To get down to 12 stone then treat to a safari. At start 17 stone 7 lbs 36.5lbs lost 40.5lbs to go.
    Started SW16st13lbs 11/7/17 - 10 weeks in -28.5lbs
    3/9 to NYE 2.5lbs down / 12.5lbs to go
    2) to find new challenges
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 12th Sep 17, 11:00 AM
    • 3,721 Posts
    • 6,084 Thanks
    sangie595
    AFAIK, even with care companies that are willing to follow the ruling, the full payments aren't going to be made until such time as the local council agrees additional funding. And this is now on hold until September at least as they try and figure out how it is meant to be paid.

    The other options the councils are looking at is removing sleep-ins from some services (that is what is feared, and in some cases already happened, as per the BBC link dawdlything' posted).
    Originally posted by mac.d

    Unless the Council happens to be care provider (which is very often not the case now) then they are not going to agree additional funding. They are not the employer. They are a commissioner of services and the fact that the companies were found to be paying below the legal requirement is nothing to do with them. Commissioning sets the expected delivery outcomes and the price - not how a company chooses to implement the delivery itself. No council is going to pay extra to these companies unless the government sets aside money specifically for this purpose. Nor should they. After all, you wouldn't be expecting to get an extra bill from Sports Direct for those sneakers you bought two years ago on the basis that the price was based on them not paying their employees properly, would you? This is no different - it is a paid for product just like any other.
    • paddedjohn
    • By paddedjohn 13th Sep 17, 10:19 AM
    • 7,019 Posts
    • 7,701 Thanks
    paddedjohn
    Can they force you to do this? The short answer is yes. If you have less than two years service, then you do it or you get dismissed. If you have more than two years, you will do it or else, at best, you will be made redundant. At worst they might enforce contractual changes because these are necessary changes to manage the business. In the end, the requirements of the service are what sustain the employment. The availability or desired work location of employees will never trump that. This will happen. The only question is whether you will still have a job when it does. If you cannot commit to these changes, then the least painful option for you is to get another job.

    As others have stated, you would have to be paid at least the minimum wage for any sleep over shifts.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    How can hey be made redundant when the job still exists?
    Be Alert..........Britain needs lerts.
    • sangie595
    • By sangie595 13th Sep 17, 1:20 PM
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    sangie595
    How can hey be made redundant when the job still exists?
    Originally posted by paddedjohn
    Because the job doesn't exist! There used to be a job that was "caring with no sleep overs in X location". The new job is "caring with sleepovers in Y location". Different job. Redundancy. Potentially. Although the employer might then claim the new jobs are suitable alternatives and refuse redundancy pay if people refuse them. And that might be correct - they might be suitable alternatives.
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