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    • Balood
    • By Balood 11th Sep 17, 10:47 AM
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    Balood
    Allowing sister to stay in mothers Sheltered Housing
    • #1
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:47 AM
    Allowing sister to stay in mothers Sheltered Housing 11th Sep 17 at 10:47 AM
    Hi

    My Mother has dementia and now requires sheltered housing. The plan is for the family to buy half interest in the local area paid for from the sale of my mothers house. My sister lives with my mother at the moment and the plan is for her to move with my mother to the sheltered housing as she requires support as well.

    The plan then for my sister to remain in the sheltered housing if my mother goes into a nursing home or passes away.

    My questions are. As my mother will own half of the sheltered housing is this not considered an asset when she passes away? As my mothers Will splits her estate equally among her children, does that mean one of her children can force the sale of the sheltered housing therefore preventing my sister from continuing to live there. Can the family members who have power of attorney for my mum, and who are the executors of her will, go ahead with the plan as it is what my mum would have wanted or can they.

    I do suspect that the local authority will want to sell the sheltered housing if it is need to fund my mothers nursing care and they will not care about my sister.
Page 1
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 11th Sep 17, 10:52 AM
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    xylophone
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:52 AM
    • #2
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:52 AM
    At the moment, your mother is the sole legal and beneficial owner of her home?

    Her house is going to be sold?

    She only has enough from the proceeds of the sale to fund a half interest in a sheltered housing development?

    Other members of the family intend to fund the other half?

    How old is the sister who lives with your mother?

    You indicate that your sister
    "also needs support"
    Is this because of physical/mental vulnerability? She is a "vulnerable adult"?

    http://www.5boroughspartnership.nhs.uk/base-page.aspx?ID=11450

    a person:

    “Who is or may be in need of community care services by reason disability, age or illness; and is or may be unable to take care of unable to protect him or herself against significant harm or exploitation”.

    This definition of an Adult covers all people over 18 years of age.
    Last edited by xylophone; 11-09-2017 at 10:56 AM. Reason: add italics
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 11th Sep 17, 10:56 AM
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    davidmcn
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:56 AM
    • #3
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:56 AM
    Can the sheltered housing continue to be occupied by someone who has no need for the "sheltered" aspect of it? I would expect there to be restrictions (similar to other types of retirement housing).
    • elsien
    • By elsien 11th Sep 17, 10:58 AM
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    elsien
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:58 AM
    • #4
    • 11th Sep 17, 10:58 AM
    I would suggest you check the rules for the sheltered housing complex you are looking at very carefully before buying.
    Some of them provide care up to a certain level but if the person's dementia means that they need a higher level of care, or their behaviour becomes problematic then they can be asked to leave.
    Alternatively, does she need to buy? Quite often these schemes are rental, when run by housing associations or the local authority (with the same caveats as above). Have you looked into whether the local authority can help her to find somewhere appropriate?
    Is the power of attorney for finances, or for welfare as well - you will need the welfare one to move your mum somewhere else if she lacks the capacity to make her own decision.
    How old is your sister? Have she and your mother had needs assessments under the Care Act - this will show the services they will be eligible for support with which can then feed into any sheltered housing and its suitability.
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 11th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
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    G_M
    • #5
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    • #5
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    My Mother has dementia and now requires sheltered housing. The plan is for the family to buy half interest in the local area paid for from the sale of my mothers house.
    How can the 'family' buy this half interest if the money comes from the sale of mother's house? It is mother's money, so she will be buying. The new property should be in her name.

    I assume you (or someone) have POA to act for mother financially? (Ah - answered below)

    If so, you have a legal duty to act in mother's best interests, and protect her assets.

    My sister lives with my mother at the moment and the plan is for her to move with my mother to the sheltered housing as she requires support as well.
    I understand this is personal, but given the plan you've outlined, and asked for advice on, this needs explaining. What is sister's issue? Is she of sound mind?

    The plan then for my sister to remain in the sheltered housing if my mother goes into a nursing home or passes away.

    My questions are. As my mother will own half of the sheltered housing is this not considered an asset when she passes away?
    Yes of course. It will be part of her Estate.

    As my mothers Will splits her estate equally among her children, does that mean one of her children can force the sale of the sheltered housing therefore preventing my sister from continuing to live there.
    Yes. If the rest of the Estate (cash, investments etc) is not enough to give the siblings shares equal the value of the property there will be 2 options:

    1) the Exectures will have to sell the property and disribute the money equally to the Beneficiaries, or
    2) the sister could use her own money to 'buy out' her siblings ie give them cash equal to the amount of their share of the Estate

    Can the family members who have power of attorney for my mum, and who are the executors of her will, go ahead with the plan as it is what my mum would have wanted or can they.
    Assuming the will was drawn up when mother was of sound mind (ie before the dementia), then the Executers must do what the Will states, not what they 'think' mum would have wanted. Anyting else would be a criminal offence.

    I do suspect that the local authority will want to sell the sheltered housing if it is need to fund my mothers nursing care and they will not care about my sister.
    Originally posted by Balood
    Read AgeUK website on funding care homes. I believe if sister lives there as mothers carer AND is over 60, the LA cannot sell the property - but I may be wrong on the details so check.

    also check the rules of the sheltered housing - sister may not be permitted to stay once mother has left:

    a) because the property may not be in her name, and
    b) because she may not meet the criteria required in terms of support needs.
    Last edited by G_M; 11-09-2017 at 11:16 AM.
    • Balood
    • By Balood 11th Sep 17, 11:34 AM
    • 4 Posts
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    Balood
    • #6
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:34 AM
    • #6
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:34 AM
    The sheltered housing is run by a charity and it only sells half the property to the tenant keeping the other half for themselves. My mothers house is valued at far more than the Sheltered Housing.

    My sister is considered a vulnerable adult and the sheltered housing charity have already agreed that she can stay on if my mother moves into a nursing home or passes away.

    I am just concerned that one of my siblings could force the sale of the Sheltered Housing living my sister homeless. I actually suggested that we write out a legally binding contract agreeing to allow my sister staying on in the housing but my point was ignored.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 11th Sep 17, 11:46 AM
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    TBagpuss
    • #7
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:46 AM
    • #7
    • 11th Sep 17, 11:46 AM
    Does your mother still have capacity? If she does, she could make or update her will to specifically leave your sister a life interest in the property, in effect preventing it from being sold while your sister was still alive and living there.


    If your mother lacks capacity then it is more difficult - it might be possible to put the property in trust for her and for your sister but you would need specialist advice as anything done with your mum's money under power of attorney must be done in her best interests.

    As she has dementia, if she currently has capacity I strongly recommend you speak to your mum about her setting up powers of attorney so that you (alone or with others) can act as her attorney if she were to lose capacity in future. It might be sensible to look at whether it is possible/sensible to do the same for your sister as well.

    ETA - missed that you already have POA - does mum have capacity at all? If so, she can still make a will, but be clear with the solicitor about her dementia so they can assess whether she has capacity.
    Last edited by TBagpuss; 11-09-2017 at 11:52 AM.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 11th Sep 17, 12:19 PM
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    xylophone
    • #8
    • 11th Sep 17, 12:19 PM
    • #8
    • 11th Sep 17, 12:19 PM
    I strongly recommend you speak to your mum about her setting up powers of attorney
    Post 1

    the family members who have power of attorney for my mum,

    It seems that the relatives who have PoA are now exercising it to sell the mother's house, using part of the proceeds to buy a half interest in a sheltered property owned by a charity which will continue to own the other half.

    One of the OP's siblings, a "vulnerable adult" who lived with her mother will be joining the mother in the sheltered housing.

    It is possible that the dementia is at an early stage so that the mother may still have mental capacity but from the information given, I suspect not.

    This means that the PoA must now be registered with the OPG ( if this has not already been done).

    The interest must be registered in the mother's sole name.

    The balance of the proceeds of sale of the house she currently owns will need to be held in accounts in the mother's sole name which will be managed by the Attorneys and presumably used for her day to day needs in her new home.

    Her interest in the sheltered property forms part of her estate as do her other assets.

    If she should become so incapacitated as to be unable to manage life (even with help) in the sheltered property, then she will need to move into a care home - unless she is eligible for Continuing Care, she will be means tested in respect of paying for that care.

    Her means would include her interest in the sheltered property - however, in view of the fact that the daughter living with her in the property would be a vulnerable adult, the likelihood would be that the council would not take it into account in assessing her liability.

    On the mother's death, as it seems that her will leaves the assets of which she dies possessed to all her children equally, it would be possible for the other siblings to seek a court order for sale.

    That said, as the sister in occupation would be a vulnerable adult,
    the court might well not be minded to grant such an order, so the other siblings would just have to wait it out.

    The members of the family who have been granted PoA would do well to take expert advice from a solicitor/IFA.

    https://societyoflaterlifeadvisers.co.uk/Find-an-adviser/What-to-expect
    • Jackmydad
    • By Jackmydad 11th Sep 17, 12:23 PM
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    Jackmydad
    • #9
    • 11th Sep 17, 12:23 PM
    • #9
    • 11th Sep 17, 12:23 PM
    It's complicated, and the more complicated things are, the more likely they are to get pulled apart by someone when things change as they inevitably will do.
    As xylophone says, the OP needs to take expert advice from someone who understands all the laws and rules that apply to a case like this.
    • elsien
    • By elsien 11th Sep 17, 12:38 PM
    • 15,296 Posts
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    elsien
    I still to back to my question as to what power of attorney is actually in place. Is it just finances, or is there a health and welfare power of attorney in place? Does your mother have capacity around moving to sheltered accommodation? Does she want to move there?
    All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of things shall be well.

    Pedant alert - it's could have, not could of.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 11th Sep 17, 1:13 PM
    • 7,591 Posts
    • 8,190 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Hi

    My Mother has dementia and now requires sheltered housing. The plan is for the family to buy half interest in the local area paid for from the sale of my mothers house. My sister lives with my mother at the moment and the plan is for her to move with my mother to the sheltered housing as she requires support as well.

    The plan then for my sister to remain in the sheltered housing if my mother goes into a nursing home or passes away.

    Whose plan? Yours? Mums? Sisters? Executors? People who will benefit from the will?

    My questions are. As my mother will own half of the sheltered housing is this not considered an asset when she passes away? As my mothers Will splits her estate equally among her children, does that mean one of her children can force the sale of the sheltered housing therefore preventing my sister from continuing to live there. Can the family members who have power of attorney for my mum, and who are the executors of her will, go ahead with the plan as it is what my mum would have wanted or can they.

    I do suspect that the local authority will want to sell the sheltered housing if it is need to fund my mothers nursing care and they will not care about my sister.
    Originally posted by Balood
    Two issues here;
    1.
    Why did your mother make her will like that?
    Why isn't it set up as you appear to want it set up, that would be the "legally binding contract" of which you speak, a will that left a life interest in mothers house to the sister. It seems a bit strange to be going against your mothers wishes.

    You say
    Can the family members who have power of attorney for my mum, and who are the executors of her will, go ahead with the plan as it is what my mum would have wanted or can they
    .

    Can they what? Go ahead with what plan? What did your mother want? If it was her daughter to live with her and live in house afterwards, why didn't her will state that? If it was everyone to get an equal share, why should sister get more ?

    2.
    How old is sister? 60? There is an exemption if she is aged more than 60 and living in a house however I'm sure there are numerous complications there. You'd need specialist legal advice.
    • teddysmum
    • By teddysmum 11th Sep 17, 3:27 PM
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    teddysmum
    As the daughter meets the over 60 or incapacitated rule, the value of the accommodation should be safe from being included as assets used to pay for residential or at home care. However, the situation on death is different as the deceased would have been the owner, with the charity just being willing to let occupation by the daughter continue.


    This does need proper legal advice and planning and perhaps Age UK would be a good starting place, as they can give advice and will know of solicitors who are expert in this field.


    Another point which needs checking is that of the charity being willing to let the daughter carry on living there. For instance are they aware that once the older lady is deceased the property share will belong to a number of people and not just the resident ?
    • gettingtheresometime
    • By gettingtheresometime 11th Sep 17, 3:56 PM
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    gettingtheresometime
    I admit I don't know the full answer & so would recommend get proper legal advice, including written confirmation that the daughter could (theoretically) stay in the property with the charity's agreement.


    However as far as the daughter (from a family perspective is concerned), if the mum is deemed capable, couldn't a will be drawn up whereby the daughter has the right to stay in the property until she a) chooses to leave it or b) dies?


    The value of the mum's share could still be split between the children, it's just a case that they would have to wait until the daughter vacates the property.
    Lloyds OD / Natwest OD / PO CC / Wescott / Argos Card cleared thanks to the 1 debt v 100 day challenge


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