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    • Rags2riches
    • By Rags2riches 10th Sep 17, 3:29 PM
    • 42Posts
    • 12Thanks
    Rags2riches
    How to deal with a brother TAKEN over parents finances..
    • #1
    • 10th Sep 17, 3:29 PM
    How to deal with a brother TAKEN over parents finances.. 10th Sep 17 at 3:29 PM
    For several years my brother has been involved with my parents finances. Originally this came about with simple tips any forum member would be proud of... but earlier in the year I discovered he has completely taken over their finances and spent on their cards.

    During this time my parents:
    • Have discovered they have close to £140k in credit cards and overdrafts. They thought it was £30k.
    • Remortgaged their home to raise funds for an extension which never materialised. £40k has simply gone.
    • Cashed in life savings of around £20k, also long since gone.
    • Forced to sell their family home and move into rented to repay their interest-only mortgage.
    • Been subject to a complex banking arrangement involving around 30 different current accounts, so they find it difficult to keep track of their income.
    • Have had pensions of around £50k whilst living a very modest lifestyle on a tight budget.

    During this time my brother had complete access to their accounts. He's borrowed near to £35k from them but also been treating their accounts like they are his own, spending on their cards and causing confusion for my parents trying to work out who's spending was who's.

    Current situation:
    • I’ve tried approaching him directly but he refuses to speak to anyone other than our parents, completely cutting me out of his life.
    • I’ve tried putting them in touch with debt charities and provided details of IFA’s they could approach but he has created an ‘illusion’ that they are in control of their own finances and he really is just trying to help them.

    He has alluded:
    • There is no problem.
    • There is no need for anybody else to be involved and should anybody become involved this proves how ungrateful they are to him… he will be 'done with them', which they clearly do not want.
    • That they are incapable of looking after their own money, without his assistance, stating that financial advisers can’t do as good a job as he can and are only out to get paid.

    My concern is that he is still ‘assisting’ them and it appears they cannot ‘break-free’. They are about to receive £55k from the proceeds of their sale.

    What help is available?
    Last edited by Rags2riches; 10-09-2017 at 5:57 PM.
Page 2
    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 10th Sep 17, 8:21 PM
    • 83 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    Rosieandjim
    Does your brother have power of attorney for your parents?


    Read this


    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/Pages/mental-capacity.aspx
    Last edited by Rosieandjim; 10-09-2017 at 8:29 PM.
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 10th Sep 17, 8:48 PM
    • 1,689 Posts
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    IAmWales
    How much money is in the 30 current accounts?

    I'm struggling to believe that they were able to get £140K in credit. How is this amount broken down, and what clues do the statements give as to where the money is going? Could your brother have a gambling problem?

    I would be very surprised if your mother was found not to have capacity. An assessment would look at whether she can make decisions, not whether those decisions are sound. The same for your father, mental illness does not necessarily indicate a lack of capacity.

    The abuse approach would be more suitable, but social services are stretched to breaking point, and are unlikely to do much if the parents don't want their help.
    Last edited by IAmWales; 10-09-2017 at 8:50 PM.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 10th Sep 17, 9:24 PM
    • 28,551 Posts
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    Mojisola
    This creates confusion and it boils down to - we must trust and believe in the child we raised - that he is telling the truth.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    Didn't they raise you as well?

    Why don't they believe that you are telling them the truth?
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 10th Sep 17, 9:37 PM
    • 28,551 Posts
    • 72,713 Thanks
    Mojisola
    I can only put it down to... this family system is dysfunctional.

    I'm the scapegoat, seen as a threat to the system.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    In that case, there is probably nothing you can do to help them - because they won't let you.

    You may have to stand aside and let your parents allow your brother to ruin them - horribly difficult but sometimes you just can't help even when you can see how bad the future will be.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 10th Sep 17, 9:51 PM
    • 28,551 Posts
    • 72,713 Thanks
    Mojisola
    .
    Plus is this just my mother.... what about my father who isn't capable of making the decisions which my mother has been entrusted with.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    You could ask to talk to a member of the Elderly Care social work team and explain your worries about your Dad and the family dynamics - but there may be nothing you can do to change the situation.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 10th Sep 17, 10:10 PM
    • 28,551 Posts
    • 72,713 Thanks
    Mojisola
    I think I've tried involving family and it hasn't worked, its caused too many ruptures and the reality is you can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    Supposing I could communicate with my mother to gain a favourable outcome what approach would you take?

    She is just in the process and hassle of moving house, my brother will be telling her the finances are all sorted.... and there is nothing to worry about. At what point do I approach her and what with?
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    You've already tried to point out what your brother's doing and your parents don't want to know.

    You've involved other family members and your parents don't want to know.

    I think you've got to accept what you already know "the reality is you can't help somebody who doesn't want to be helped".
    • annandale
    • By annandale 10th Sep 17, 10:41 PM
    • 926 Posts
    • 1,981 Thanks
    annandale
    Nothing, you can do nothing if you arent willing to involve social services.

    Why should your father get assistance from the council? You are sitting back and watching your brother fleece them and asking questions about what will happen to your dad if your mum dies?

    Youve been given advice on what to do, you wont involve social services but you want to believe there's some sort of solution to this mess without involving anyone else while knowing that your brother is fleecing them and its going to continue fleecing them.

    They'll have nothing left shortly, thats the reality. Are you prepared to see them ruined completely before you try and get help?

    If they have credit cards and overdrafts of 140k who is making the payments on the credit cards? I suppose you are aware that if payments arent being made they are going to be racking up a fortune in interest every month

    They'll end up bankrupt. Im strugging to believe this. If they had that much debt that wasnt being met, theyd be getting letters from the credit card companies by now and action would be taken against them.

    Do you know what the minimum payment on a credit card would be for the debt you claim they have?

    Cards would be stopped if someone went over the limit on the cards, he wouldnt be able to spend on them to the extent you are claiming.
    • Gingernutty
    • By Gingernutty 10th Sep 17, 11:03 PM
    • 3,463 Posts
    • 10,436 Thanks
    Gingernutty
    You will never gain your mother's support, by the sounds of things.

    You'll just have to go directly to Social Services yourself
    Don't know what I'm doing, but doing it anyway...
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 10th Sep 17, 11:22 PM
    • 3,954 Posts
    • 4,313 Thanks
    Keep pedalling
    You parents are effectively bankrupt, financially things can't get any worse, and sooner or later (probably sooner) this whole thing is going to come crashing down on them. They are in denial, so there is little you can do apart from offer support when the wheels finally come off.
    • indian summer
    • By indian summer 10th Sep 17, 11:39 PM
    • 34 Posts
    • 27 Thanks
    indian summer
    Why dont you threaten to walk away from your mother unless she puts you both in charge of the accounts.
    Or does she prefer your brother to you?

    Plead with her how you cant sit by and see them both get ruined by him.

    Have you shown her the sums?

    Wasnt the whole idea in the first place to create interest on the money?

    How was the fact she lost her home explained to her?

    Write a long heartfelt letter with all the sums and exactly how much savings she had in the beginning and how much debt she has now.

    Or just tell that nasty piece of work of a brother to !!!! the hell off as you are taking charge now!
    • Ames
    • By Ames 10th Sep 17, 11:42 PM
    • 16,496 Posts
    • 28,886 Thanks
    Ames
    Do they actually know how much they owe and how much interest they're paying? It's a long shot but maybe using some of the tools on this site could get reality through to them.

    Is your dad's health so bad that he completely lacks capacity, or it it more that he can't face things and gets overwhelmed?
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.

    Reading the alphabet in 2017. 21/100
    ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
    • kelpie35
    • By kelpie35 10th Sep 17, 11:49 PM
    • 1,524 Posts
    • 4,840 Thanks
    kelpie35
    You seem to have very detailed information about your parents finances.

    Can you not take all this information back to the police, ask to speak to someone who deals with fraud.

    Also take all this information to your social service, care of the elderly department, and ask if they can assist you in any way.

    If you are willing to do these two things, and you are unable to get help for your parents, then you need to take a step back, and get on with living your life, in the knowledge you have done your best for your parents.
    • Pixie5740
    • By Pixie5740 11th Sep 17, 1:04 AM
    • 11,107 Posts
    • 15,395 Thanks
    Pixie5740
    The figures don't make sense. The minimum repayments for £140k of debt would be a lot more than £2,295 a month. Is it possible your brother is stoozing the money which is why there are dozens of different accounts?

    Your parents are in their 60s now but they weren't when this all started. Your parents have chosen, most likely against the T&C of the banks involved, to give your brother full access to their accounts. Your mum doesn't want to hear it from you. She doesn't want to hear it from other family members. Meanwhile you're sat there wringing your hands about involving social services in case they don't make your parents a priority. One thing is for certain, social services won't do anything if they don't know about it.
    Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.
    • Red-Squirrel
    • By Red-Squirrel 11th Sep 17, 6:54 AM
    • 1,916 Posts
    • 5,264 Thanks
    Red-Squirrel
    These are not elderly people, they are still working age!

    They might be vulnerable for other reasons, but it isn't elder abuse surely?

    OP, I'd take a step back, they are adults, you've warned them and you've offered to help them, now let them make their own mistakes, because to be honest I can't imagine for a second that they are actually being completely fooled here. I think there is something going on that you don't know about.
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 11th Sep 17, 7:22 AM
    • 2,793 Posts
    • 2,795 Thanks
    cjdavies
    He is not borrowing he is stealing and your parents are blind to it - sorry to be blunt.

    As hard as it Is, you have tried everything, and let them get on with it and disown the brother.
    Last edited by cjdavies; 11-09-2017 at 7:39 AM.
    • Tygermoth
    • By Tygermoth 11th Sep 17, 7:43 AM
    • 1,291 Posts
    • 2,615 Thanks
    Tygermoth
    quote from the OP - I've been to the police (specifically the fraud team) and provided the statements with no further action. My mother was interviewed and claimed at the time she knew all about it and had allowed it - to prevent him getting into any trouble.


    Stop. Just stop.


    You can involve every department from the fraud squad, social services to flippin Hogwarts - if you mother says she knows what's going on and is happy for it to continue they will all pack up and go home.


    What you have to change is YOU.


    You have to realise things are not going to change - and live with it.
    You have to understand that you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
    You need to work out what YOU will do when the house of cards falls down.
    You need to realise banging you head against a brick wall is only going to hurt you.


    As people have said before there is no helping people till they want to be helped - and your mother doesn't. She has shown you that on a number of occasions and to the authorities.


    So stop.
    Last edited by Tygermoth; 11-09-2017 at 7:46 AM.
    Please note I have a cognitive disability - as such my wording can be a bit off, muddled, misspelt or in some cases i can miss out some words totally...
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 11th Sep 17, 8:07 AM
    • 18,340 Posts
    • 47,010 Thanks
    Pollycat
    He is not borrowing he is stealing and your parents are blind to it - sorry to be blunt.

    As hard as it Is, you have tried everything, and let them get on with it and disown the brother.
    Originally posted by cjdavies
    quote from the OP - I've been to the police (specifically the fraud team) and provided the statements with no further action. My mother was interviewed and claimed at the time she knew all about it and had allowed it - to prevent him getting into any trouble.


    Stop. Just stop.


    You can involve every department from the fraud squad, social services to flippin Hogwarts - if you mother says she knows what's going on and is happy for it to continue they will all pack up and go home.


    What you have to change is YOU.


    You have to realise things are not going to change - and live with it.
    You have to understand that you can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink.
    You need to work out what YOU will do when the house of cards falls down.
    You need to realise banging you head against a brick wall is only going to hurt you.


    As people have said before there is no helping people till they want to be helped - and your mother doesn't. She has shown you that on a number of occasions and to the authorities.


    So stop.
    Originally posted by Tygermoth
    Both of these ^^^^ - with bells on.

    You've said several times that your Mother defended your brother against police involvement.
    She won't have family interfering.

    Whoever you turn to, she will stick up for what your brother is doing.

    There really is no magic wand to resolve this situation.
    It has to start with your Mother - and she won't play ball.
    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 11th Sep 17, 8:39 AM
    • 83 Posts
    • 102 Thanks
    Rosieandjim
    Oh well I expect many will be saying at least they wont have to pay for any Care as they have successfully given away all of their assets.


    The sad thing is that you have no inheritance to look forward too, and why would your mother favour your brother in doing this and not give you anything.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 11th Sep 17, 9:06 AM
    • 18,340 Posts
    • 47,010 Thanks
    Pollycat
    Oh well I expect many will be saying at least they wont have to pay for any Care as they have successfully given away all of their assets.
    Originally posted by Rosieandjim
    Unless it's considered as deprivation of assets.
    In which case if they do need care in the future - and the majority of people don't - they may be up the proverbial creek.

    The sad thing is that you have no inheritance to look forward too, and why would your mother favour your brother in doing this and not give you anything.
    Originally posted by Rosieandjim
    This makes me angry.
    There is no inheritance until someone dies and leaves money or property to someone else in a will (or does inttestate and natual inheritance laws apply).
    What decent person would 'look forward' to gaining financially from the death of someone else?
    • Keep pedalling
    • By Keep pedalling 11th Sep 17, 9:06 AM
    • 3,954 Posts
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    Keep pedalling
    I don't think there is a lot you can do, being in their 60s does not make them elderly or vulnerable, While they remain in denial and continue to defend his actions no external agencies can take any action. They need urgent independant professional financial advice, but only they can ask for that.

    The loss of the house is really down to to their decision to go with an interest only mortgage, when from the sounds of it their income would have easily covered a repayment mortgage, so your brother is not fully to blame for the mess they are currently in.

    Can you clarify their pension position, do they have a pension pot of £55k or an annual income of £55k. If the latter I am amazed that they could be in that position but be so financially clueless.
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