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  • FIRST POST
    • Rags2riches
    • By Rags2riches 10th Sep 17, 3:29 PM
    • 42Posts
    • 11Thanks
    Rags2riches
    How to deal with a brother TAKEN over parents finances..
    • #1
    • 10th Sep 17, 3:29 PM
    How to deal with a brother TAKEN over parents finances.. 10th Sep 17 at 3:29 PM
    For several years my brother has been involved with my parents finances. Originally this came about with simple tips any forum member would be proud of... but earlier in the year I discovered he has completely taken over their finances and spent on their cards.

    During this time my parents:
    • Have discovered they have close to £140k in credit cards and overdrafts. They thought it was £30k.
    • Remortgaged their home to raise funds for an extension which never materialised. £40k has simply gone.
    • Cashed in life savings of around £20k, also long since gone.
    • Forced to sell their family home and move into rented to repay their interest-only mortgage.
    • Been subject to a complex banking arrangement involving around 30 different current accounts, so they find it difficult to keep track of their income.
    • Have had pensions of around £50k whilst living a very modest lifestyle on a tight budget.

    During this time my brother had complete access to their accounts. He's borrowed near to £35k from them but also been treating their accounts like they are his own, spending on their cards and causing confusion for my parents trying to work out who's spending was who's.

    Current situation:
    • I’ve tried approaching him directly but he refuses to speak to anyone other than our parents, completely cutting me out of his life.
    • I’ve tried putting them in touch with debt charities and provided details of IFA’s they could approach but he has created an ‘illusion’ that they are in control of their own finances and he really is just trying to help them.

    He has alluded:
    • There is no problem.
    • There is no need for anybody else to be involved and should anybody become involved this proves how ungrateful they are to him… he will be 'done with them', which they clearly do not want.
    • That they are incapable of looking after their own money, without his assistance, stating that financial advisers can’t do as good a job as he can and are only out to get paid.

    My concern is that he is still ‘assisting’ them and it appears they cannot ‘break-free’. They are about to receive £55k from the proceeds of their sale.

    What help is available?
    Last edited by Rags2riches; 10-09-2017 at 5:57 PM.
Page 1
    • Ames
    • By Ames 10th Sep 17, 4:38 PM
    • 16,257 Posts
    • 28,390 Thanks
    Ames
    • #2
    • 10th Sep 17, 4:38 PM
    • #2
    • 10th Sep 17, 4:38 PM
    Was it a formal agreement such as Power of Attorney?
    Unless I say otherwise 'you' means the general you not you specifically.

    Reading the alphabet in 2017. 21/100
    ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
    • mickey54
    • By mickey54 10th Sep 17, 5:00 PM
    • 346 Posts
    • 522 Thanks
    mickey54
    • #3
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:00 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:00 PM
    How old are they?

    Approach social services and speak to someone who deals with vulnerable adults.
    • DCFC79
    • By DCFC79 10th Sep 17, 5:05 PM
    • 29,956 Posts
    • 18,971 Thanks
    DCFC79
    • #4
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:05 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:05 PM
    Why is he doing it ?
    Is he having money issues ?

    Ill be blunt with you he sounds like a prat.

    Does he live with your parents ?

    Could your parents organise for new cards to be sent out, if he lives with them your parents could see if the cards can get sent to the local branch and they get them or you take your mum out for the day and you pick up the card whilst out.
    Last edited by DCFC79; 10-09-2017 at 5:07 PM.
    Can people stop loaning money/being a guarator to family/friends, it rarely ends well and you lose out as your money is gone or you get shafted with being a guarantor.
    • Rags2riches
    • By Rags2riches 10th Sep 17, 5:44 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Rags2riches
    • #5
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:44 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:44 PM
    How old are they?

    Approach social services and speak to someone who deals with vulnerable adults.
    Originally posted by mickey54
    That is a really good suggestion. I am considering it as a last ditch attempt, but I'm reluctant to seek social services involvement without at least some support from my parents. They are in their 60's.

    They may feel this is unwarranted help forced upon them.
    • Rags2riches
    • By Rags2riches 10th Sep 17, 5:50 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Rags2riches
    • #6
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:50 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Sep 17, 5:50 PM
    Was it a formal agreement such as Power of Attorney?
    Originally posted by Ames
    Unfortunately there is no Power of Attorney.
    Last edited by Rags2riches; 11-09-2017 at 9:46 AM.
    • tikki999
    • By tikki999 10th Sep 17, 6:00 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 26 Thanks
    tikki999
    • #7
    • 10th Sep 17, 6:00 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Sep 17, 6:00 PM
    Is it worth having a look at the website of Action on Elder Abuse? It may help you clarify what steps to take.
    • Rags2riches
    • By Rags2riches 10th Sep 17, 6:19 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Rags2riches
    • #8
    • 10th Sep 17, 6:19 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Sep 17, 6:19 PM
    Is it worth having a look at the website of Action on Elder Abuse? It may help you clarify what steps to take.
    Originally posted by tikki999
    Yes. This was my starting point. I've been there and signed the petition.

    Unfortunately unless my parents co-operate and tell the truth its not a crime, in the current law. They don't want to get him into trouble, and ruin his chances of getting a job in the future and neither do I, as this will simply mean him living off them into the future, isn't going to resolve the underlining issues or be helpful to anybody.

    What would be helpful is if they had control of their accounts and to re-gain the confidence to manage them... themselves... and somehow learned to say NO to him.

    The main issue - he has a need to access their accounts - whatever it is - control over them, need for money, sibling rivalry, mistaken money for love etc.

    They have made excuses for him and whilst they have been living in their home with cash available, the actual reality of paying back their debt, doesn't yet seem to have materialised.
    • Pollycat
    • By Pollycat 10th Sep 17, 6:22 PM
    • 17,622 Posts
    • 44,856 Thanks
    Pollycat
    • #9
    • 10th Sep 17, 6:22 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Sep 17, 6:22 PM
    Yes. This was my starting point. I've been there and signed the petition.

    Unfortunately unless my parents co-operate and tell the truth its not a crime, in the current law. They don't want to get him into trouble, and ruin his chances of getting a job in the future and neither do I, as this will simply mean him living off them into the future, isn't going to resolve the underlining issues or be helpful to anybody.

    What would be helpful is if they had control of their accounts and to re-gain the confidence to manage them... themselves... and somehow learned to say NO to him.

    The main issue - he has a need to access their accounts - whatever it is - control over them, need for money, sibling rivalry, mistaken money for love etc.

    They have made excuses for him and whilst they have been living in their home with cash available, the actual reality of paying back their debt, doesn't yet seem to have materialised.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    And there it is (in bold).

    Until they acknowledge that they have been and are being subject to elder financial abuse, you may be seen as the one causing trouble.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 10th Sep 17, 6:58 PM
    • 28,213 Posts
    • 71,777 Thanks
    Mojisola
    For several years my brother has been involved with my parents finances. Originally this came about with simple tips any forum member would be proud of... but earlier in the year I discovered he has completely taken over their finances and spent on their cards.

    During this time my parents:
    • Have discovered they have close to £140k in credit cards and overdrafts. They thought it was £30k.
    • Remortgaged their home to raise funds for an extension which never materialised. £40k has simply gone.
    • Cashed in life savings of around £20k, also long since gone.
    • Forced to sell their family home and move into rented to repay their interest-only mortgage.
    • Been subject to a complex banking arrangement involving around 30 different current accounts, so they find it difficult to keep track of their income.
    • Have had pensions of around £50k whilst living a very modest lifestyle on a tight budget.

    During this time my brother had complete access to their accounts. He's borrowed near to £35k from them but also been treating their accounts like they are his own, spending on their cards and causing confusion for my parents trying to work out who's spending was who's.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    They did try to take back control but that is when he kicked up a fuss, told them they were ungrateful and threatened to walk away from them.

    Also claiming that my involvement was merely to get 'hold of their money'.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    Step back from saying anything about what he's doing and stay very objective.

    Help them get everything down on paper.

    If they can't see that they need to put a stop to his 'help' when it's all laid out in front of them, there's nothing you can do.
    • Mojisola
    • By Mojisola 10th Sep 17, 7:08 PM
    • 28,213 Posts
    • 71,777 Thanks
    Mojisola
    I have everything down on paper, shown to them. That made sense to them.... it seemed like progress was being made until... my brother spoke to them. I'm not joking when I tell you he has an excuse for just about every eventuality.... I've shown them debits from their account which he has subsequently convinced them are actually credits.
    Originally posted by Rags2riches
    Unless they are below average intelligence, they are letting him manipulate them - even school kids can see that money going out of an account isn't a credit!
    • annandale
    • By annandale 10th Sep 17, 7:10 PM
    • 739 Posts
    • 1,674 Thanks
    annandale
    I have everything down on paper, shown to them. That made sense to them.... it seemed like progress was being made until... my brother spoke to them. I'm not joking when I tell you he has an excuse for just about every eventuality.... I've shown them debits from their account which he has subsequently convinced them are actually credits.
    Get some advice from social service and a charity like Age Uk before he completely ruins them.
    • annandale
    • By annandale 10th Sep 17, 7:10 PM
    • 739 Posts
    • 1,674 Thanks
    annandale
    Unless they are below average intelligence, they are letting him manipulate them - even school kids can see that money going out of an account isn't a credit!
    Agree, I find that very hard to believe.
    • annandale
    • By annandale 10th Sep 17, 7:13 PM
    • 739 Posts
    • 1,674 Thanks
    annandale
    Sorry, but if someone was making credits into someones account the amount of money would be rising, not going down.
    • Gingernutty
    • By Gingernutty 10th Sep 17, 7:20 PM
    • 3,416 Posts
    • 10,317 Thanks
    Gingernutty
    If they are that naive, gullible or learning disabled, surely they could be described as 'vulnerable'.

    This is elder abuse. He has screwed every penny out of them, has probably lost them their home and is criminally offensive.

    What have Social Services said?

    Can you not apply for Deputyship under the Court of Protection?
    Don't know what I'm doing, but doing it anyway...
    • annandale
    • By annandale 10th Sep 17, 7:21 PM
    • 739 Posts
    • 1,674 Thanks
    annandale
    If they are that naive, gullible or learning disabled, surely they could be described as 'vulnerable'.

    This is elder abuse. He has screwed every penny out of them, has probably lost them their home and is criminally offensive.

    What have Social Services said?

    Can you not apply for Deputyship under the Court of Protection?
    Agree

    Social services aren't involved.
    • annandale
    • By annandale 10th Sep 17, 7:44 PM
    • 739 Posts
    • 1,674 Thanks
    annandale
    I cant see there being any other solutions if you think the answer is to try and resolve this within the family.
    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 10th Sep 17, 7:57 PM
    • 78 Posts
    • 99 Thanks
    Rosieandjim
    Make sure you have all this recorded with Social Services. It is in effect a deprivation of their assets and may affect any claim they make for future care. Could you argue this point with both your mother and Social Services. Or find out if by continuing to give away their money they are depriving themselves.


    Could your mother be assessed to see if she still has mental capacity to make these decisions to allow your brother to take this money. Also half this money belongs to your father who definitely does not have capacity so surely his half should be safe guarded. Maybe a solicitor could help with advice or Court of Protection
    Last edited by Rosieandjim; 10-09-2017 at 8:00 PM.
    • Rags2riches
    • By Rags2riches 10th Sep 17, 7:59 PM
    • 42 Posts
    • 11 Thanks
    Rags2riches
    Make sure you have all this recorded with Social Services. It is in effect a deprivation of their assets and may affect any claim they make for future care. Could you argue this point with both your mother and Social Services. Or find out if by continuing to give away their money they are depriving themselves.


    Could your mother be assessed to see if she still has mental capacity to make these decisions to allow your brother to take this money. Also half this money belongs to your father who definitely does not have capacity so surely his half should be safe guarded. Maybe a solicitor could help with advice
    Originally posted by Rosieandjim
    Thanks for your help. I haven't considered any of these things.
    • Rosieandjim
    • By Rosieandjim 10th Sep 17, 8:15 PM
    • 78 Posts
    • 99 Thanks
    Rosieandjim
    Might be worth talking with the Court of Protection also.


    Read this


    http://www.ageuk.org.uk/home-and-care/care-homes/deprivation-of-assets-in-the-means-test-for-care-home-provision/


    This may help you as a reason he must be stopped as Local Authorities can look back at finances
    Last edited by Rosieandjim; 10-09-2017 at 8:20 PM.
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