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    • poety
    • By poety 10th Sep 17, 8:08 AM
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    poety
    Death of spouse and ESA
    • #1
    • 10th Sep 17, 8:08 AM
    Death of spouse and ESA 10th Sep 17 at 8:08 AM
    Hello
    I receive ESA (Support group) & have a small pension which slightly reduces my award as I have cancer. My wife has also struggled with cancer for many years. She has recently died. We are both well under state retirement age.
    My wife's occupational pension leaves me with 'survivor benefits' in the form of a reduced pension for life. This is separate from my own ill-health pension.
    I did find something online which states that survivor benefits in terms of a spouse's reduced pension isn't taken into account in the same way that a pension in my own name would have been.. As such, my wife's reduced pension would not further erode my ESA award.
    There is a link on the government site which appears to support that my pension will be unchanged, although I can't post this here & there's very little other reference to such.
    As there can be conflicting advice from DWP I wonder whether anyone can tell me whether this award will further reduce my ESA payment.
    Thanks for any help.
    Last edited by poety; 10-09-2017 at 8:13 AM.
Page 1
    • pmlindyloo
    • By pmlindyloo 10th Sep 17, 10:01 AM
    • 10,841 Posts
    • 12,703 Thanks
    pmlindyloo
    • #2
    • 10th Sep 17, 10:01 AM
    • #2
    • 10th Sep 17, 10:01 AM
    Hello
    I receive ESA (Support group) & have a small pension which slightly reduces my award as I have cancer. My wife has also struggled with cancer for many years. She has recently died. We are both well under state retirement age.
    My wife's occupational pension leaves me with 'survivor benefits' in the form of a reduced pension for life. This is separate from my own ill-health pension.
    I did find something online which states that survivor benefits in terms of a spouse's reduced pension isn't taken into account in the same way that a pension in my own name would have been.. As such, my wife's reduced pension would not further erode my ESA award.
    There is a link on the government site which appears to support that my pension will be unchanged, although I can't post this here & there's very little other reference to such.
    As there can be conflicting advice from DWP I wonder whether anyone can tell me whether this award will further reduce my ESA payment.
    Thanks for any help.
    Originally posted by poety
    Sorry for your loss.

    I have found this:

    According to this link:

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/473430/admv1.pdf

    Scroll down to V1127

    this is known as a survivors pension and should be disregarded in full for income related ESA (hope I've read it correctly)

    Are you receiving PIP?
    • poety
    • By poety 10th Sep 17, 12:03 PM
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    poety
    • #3
    • 10th Sep 17, 12:03 PM
    • #3
    • 10th Sep 17, 12:03 PM
    Hi there
    No, I haven't ever applied for PIP. I've been on ESA for eight years.
    Thanks for your help. I have spoken to DWP who seemed to think that I would lose much of the ESA award as this is a new pension (only very small). Hopefully I can get DWP to draw a distinction between 'survivor benefits pension' and the ill-health pension when it comes to reducing ESA.
    Thanks. Really appreciated your reply.
    • jonesMUFCforever
    • By jonesMUFCforever 10th Sep 17, 1:16 PM
    • 24,186 Posts
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    jonesMUFCforever
    • #4
    • 10th Sep 17, 1:16 PM
    • #4
    • 10th Sep 17, 1:16 PM
    Go to see CAB or any local employment charity - they will write a letter to DWP quoting the relevant rule which will help you.
    What goes around - comes around
    give lots and you will always receive lots
    • poppy12345
    • By poppy12345 10th Sep 17, 1:16 PM
    • 1,702 Posts
    • 1,527 Thanks
    poppy12345
    • #5
    • 10th Sep 17, 1:16 PM
    • #5
    • 10th Sep 17, 1:16 PM
    Hi there
    No, I haven't ever applied for PIP. I've been on ESA for eight years.
    Thanks for your help. I have spoken to DWP who seemed to think that I would lose much of the ESA award as this is a new pension (only very small). Hopefully I can get DWP to draw a distinction between 'survivor benefits pension' and the ill-health pension when it comes to reducing ESA.
    Thanks. Really appreciated your reply.
    Originally posted by poety
    Take a look at these PIP descriptors and see if any apply to you.
    http://www.focusondisability.org.uk/personal-independence-payment-PIP-assessment-points.html
    • poety
    • By poety 10th Sep 17, 1:43 PM
    • 10 Posts
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    poety
    • #6
    • 10th Sep 17, 1:43 PM
    • #6
    • 10th Sep 17, 1:43 PM
    Thanks for your replies.
    (There used to be a 'thanks' button to push?)
    Appreciate your time with this. I know, from my conversations, that if I describe this new income as a 'pension' it will reduce my ESA. So, it's good to be in a position of knowing what to say.
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 10th Sep 17, 2:20 PM
    • 1,666 Posts
    • 3,441 Thanks
    IAmWales
    • #7
    • 10th Sep 17, 2:20 PM
    • #7
    • 10th Sep 17, 2:20 PM
    Thanks for your replies.
    (There used to be a 'thanks' button to push?)
    Appreciate your time with this. I know, from my conversations, that if I describe this new income as a 'pension' it will reduce my ESA. So, it's good to be in a position of knowing what to say.
    Originally posted by poety
    It doesn't matter how you describe it, it is how the DWP interpret it. When you report the change in circumstances you'll need to send copies of any paperwork, and from this information they'll make a decision.

    On the information given, the payment will be disregarded for ESA purposes.
    • Alice Holt
    • By Alice Holt 10th Sep 17, 4:09 PM
    • 1,548 Posts
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    Alice Holt
    • #8
    • 10th Sep 17, 4:09 PM
    • #8
    • 10th Sep 17, 4:09 PM
    It may be worth seeing if you have access to a Macmillan Welfare Adviser:
    http://finance.macmillan.org.uk/benefits/checker

    Best wishes.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 10th Sep 17, 7:54 PM
    • 2,980 Posts
    • 1,816 Thanks
    epitome
    • #9
    • 10th Sep 17, 7:54 PM
    • #9
    • 10th Sep 17, 7:54 PM
    If you just spoke to the ESA enquiry line, such a question as this would be outside of their general knowledge.

    What you should have done (if you didn't already do this) is to ask the ESA enquiry line to get a you a call back from the ESA claims Maintenance team, who would then call you back within 24 hours and give you a better reply.

    It's not something I know anything about, I did not read pmlindyloo's(PMLL) link, but I assume what she says to be correct. There is one caveat, in that PMLL said "ESA IR is not affected"... we don't therefore yet know how it would affect ESA Conts.

    Can you tell me what is your rate of ESA Conts ? and your rate of ESA IR?
    Unadjusted Total and Adjusted Totals if possible.

    Your ESA Conts unadjusted total would be about 109.65 (if you have it)

    I will try to find out how it might affect an ESA Conts claim.
    • poety
    • By poety 10th Sep 17, 10:17 PM
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    poety
    Hi there
    That's very good of you. Thank you. I appreciate your time with this.
    My ESA is contribution-based and not income related. I have been in the support group for five years. I have an ill-health pension which reduces my weekly ESA down from £109 to £86. I have no further income. My late wife's pension/death benefit is around £3000 annually which potentially could remove £1500. I don't claim any other form of benefit. I do appreciate your time with this. Thank you.
    • poety
    • By poety 10th Sep 17, 10:20 PM
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    poety
    Thank you.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 11th Sep 17, 9:59 PM
    • 2,980 Posts
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    epitome
    I was a bit busy today, try coming back tomorrow and later this week.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 12th Sep 17, 9:25 PM
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    epitome
    Hi,

    I found something on Pensions... what I found says:

    Effect of Pension Income on ESA(C)
    Certain types of pension income can be disregarded for ESA(C). These include:
    * inherited pensions on the death of a member of a scheme;
    * any pension payment made where the pension scheme is in deficit or has insufficient resources to meet the full pension payment, the extent of the shortfall is fully disregarded; and
    * any permanent health insurance payment where the employee had contributed to the premium to the extent of more than 50%.


    As you can see this is saying that your survivor pension will be diregarded for ESA C. However, what I read does not mention the same disregard for ESA IR (which is what PMLL said above). I will try to find out about ESA IR.

    Have you considered Pension Credit (PC)? You should check your Pension Credit Age. You can keep an ESA C claim open with Pension Credit.

    If you are not of PC age yet...have you considered ESA IR? Is there anything stopping you from ESA IR? savings over £16,000 ? I can see from your earlier reply, your Occ Pen must be about £131 a week Gross, do you know what the net amount is?
    And your Inherited pension is disregarded so we can ignore that. I guess with an Occ Pen of that amount, ESA IR will not be worth claiming, unless you have a mortgage - perhaps? If you get PIP Daily Living.
    Your potential for ESA IR with PIP daily, could be
    73.10
    36.55
    15.75
    62.
    About 187 - 189
    Your pension would be deducted in full at net so if net was 115
    189 - 115 = 74 which is less than what you get on ESA Conts...so not worth it.
    But if you add on a mortgage scheme at maybe 40, you might get
    (189 + 40) - 115 = 114 which would be worth it.

    *I have also now quickly glanced at PMLL link and V1127, it is a good link and very useful. It does say there "Will not affect ESA" which means both C & IR ESA are unaffected by survivor pensions... Although my info I got today does only say for ESA C, I'm sure now that it equally applies to ESA IR.
    Last edited by epitome; 12-09-2017 at 9:43 PM.
    • poety
    • By poety 14th Sep 17, 7:53 AM
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    poety
    Thank you.
    That is a wonderful reply and very comprehensive. This really is very kind of you at what is a very difficult time for myself.
    I'm going to answer fully later in the day when I have the information to hand - have only just seen your post.
    I am very grateful
    • poety
    • By poety 14th Sep 17, 8:26 AM
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    poety
    Thank you again.
    Given all of the variables involved, I can see why there could easily be confusion surrounding the issue I raised.
    The thrust of what you are saying is that contribution-based ESA is not going to be affected by an inherited pension. Thank you so much for doing the number-crunching. I basically have an income of a little under £10k but have fully liability for Council Tax, mortgage etc etc.
    , I would not be eligible for pension credit, as I’m in my fifties. Equally, I would not be considered for ESA IR related at the moment as I have some savings around the threshold. These are depleting quickly to cover my mortgage & Council Tax. So, this will change in 12 months so I will hang on to your figures. .
    Thank you again. It means a great deal. I worked for 30+ years, as did my wife. So, up until our numerous cancer diagnoses we had no experience of the System.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 14th Sep 17, 9:34 AM
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    epitome
    Ok you're welcome.

    The way to look at it is... Your ESA C basic is £109.65 a week, less the deduction for pension.
    Basic ESA C (support Group) is made up of £73.10 + 36.55 = £109.65

    The ESA C uses the Gross Pension figure, the first £85 is disregarded then 50% of anything over £85 is taken out of your ESA C.

    You said your ESA C is £86 after pension. so I know that is a deduction of 109.65 - 86 = £23.65
    £23.65 x 2 = £47.30
    £47.30 + £85 = £132.30

    So I guessed that your Gross Pension is about £132

    ESA IR uses the net pension amount and the full amount of the net pension is deducted. Some peoples Gross and net are exactly the same amount. Some people, the net is less than the Gross.

    Basic ESA IR (Support Group) is £73.10 + 36.55 + 15.90 = £125.55
    If you apply for and are awarded PIP Daily Living, and you live alone (certain people you live with can be disregarded like children, whom you get child benefit for, or a live in carer who is funded partly by a charity and partly by you) you would get what is called Severe Disability Premium on ESA IR which is an additional £62.45

    £125.55 + £62.45 = £188.00

    Also on ESA IR you can get help with a mortgage, but only after waiting about 10 months from your ESA IR start date. You may already have ESA IR on your claim ... you just don't realise that you do. If this is the case then you will already have completed your 10 month waiting period. if you really don't have ESA IR then you would have to apply for it and wait the 10 months.

    The mortgage help is basically a percetage of the balance of your mortgage, it used to be 3.12% but it went down recently, I think to 2.61%

    So if you have a balance of £80,000 the DWP would give you £40.15 per week.

    ESA IR entitled amount would be £188 + £40.15 = £228.15

    From what ever ESA IR entitlement amount that you calculate you will be eligible for...you then deduct your net income.
    Also from this amount any savings over £6,000 will affect it at £1 for every £250 (or part of) above £6,000.
    If you have £16,000 or above you will not be entitled to any ESA IR.
    As soon as your savings dip below £16,000 you can apply for ESA IR.

    If your savings are £15,010 that is £9,010 over £6,000
    £9010 / 250 = 36 + 1(part of) = £37

    So your ESA IR (with figures above incl mortgage and SDP etc) would be £228.15 - £37 = £191.15 and then you would deduct your net income from that figure.

    If the ESA C amount is more than the ESA IR amount... then you will only receive the ESA C amount.

    If the ESA IR amount is more than your ESA C amount then you will only recieve the ESA IR amount

    Because of the 10 month waiting period for mortgage help, you should consider applying for ESA IR as soon as your savings are below £16,000 You will probably only continue to get your ESA C amount... and you should regularly update the DWP with your current savings balance. But in the future, if you are awarded PIP Daily, and your savings deplete more, then eventually you may get more on ESA IR than you do on ESA C.... and having applied for ESA IR more than 10 months ago, you would get that ESA IR help straight away.

    *Also you cannot spend your savings deliberatley with the intention of recieving more benefit in the future. Your reason for spending your savings must be because you need to* *(not actually strictly true, but this is a generalisation)
    Last edited by epitome; 14-09-2017 at 9:40 AM.
    • poety
    • By poety 14th Sep 17, 11:16 AM
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    poety
    I'm printing this all off for reference. I'm hoping to eventually combat my cancer and return to some normality. However, that looks unlikely for now.
    Again, I can't thank you enough. This clearly took you a considerable amount of time to put together. Having this information to hand gives me some insight into how to present this to DWP. My financial situation is likely to deteriorate in the coming months and years, so the reference to IR ESA is going to be of great use - particularly the way in which mortgages are handled. Thank you ... although that doesn't seem enough in itself.
    • poety
    • By poety 14th Sep 17, 1:46 PM
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    poety
    Just a quick question. As my inherited pension is not taken into account for ESA under my present contribution-based award, do I need to actually declare this? Thank you.
    Last edited by poety; 14-09-2017 at 4:51 PM.
    • epitome
    • By epitome 14th Sep 17, 7:58 PM
    • 2,980 Posts
    • 1,816 Thanks
    epitome
    Just a quick question. As my inherited pension is not taken into account for ESA under my present contribution-based award, do I need to actually declare this? Thank you.
    Originally posted by poety
    I thought you already had declared it...

    But strictly speaking if you think it should be disregarded in full, you would not have to declare it. You only have to declare things that will affect your benefit, if you don't know you should declare everything.

    If you did not declare it and sometime in the future the DWP said "Hey we have found out you have 2 pensions, send us the details of both pensions" If it was to be disregarded in full then there would be no overpayment of benefit and therefore no penalty or recovery imposed on you.

    However, if for some reason your assumption that it would be disregarded in full was wrong, then the DWP would recover an overpayment for non disclosure.

    I know it is me saying it will be disregarded in full... but at the end of the day it is always best to declare everything, and be on the safe side.
    I advise you to declare it to ESA and send them a Pension letter which inludes that it is an inheritance Pension, the award date & gross and net amounts as evidence.
    • poety
    • By poety 14th Sep 17, 8:15 PM
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    poety
    Thank you.
    No I handn't formally declared, but just had a chat with DWP as to whether this type of award would reduce the amount ahead of getting the final figure from the pension people. They were obviously unable to process this without the final figure, which took a month to process. I'm now ready to declare the amount, hence I wanted to have all the information to hand - which you have supplied in full detail. Sorry to clutter up the thread. Thanks so much again.
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