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  • FIRST POST
    • Muscle750
    • By Muscle750 9th Sep 17, 5:39 PM
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    Muscle750
    Told cant have holiday
    • #1
    • 9th Sep 17, 5:39 PM
    Told cant have holiday 9th Sep 17 at 5:39 PM
    Ive submitted my holiday form 2 months before i want to take them ive been told i cant have them because someone else is off, My holidays run from Jan to Dec and i get 30 days a year (yes im lucky). However with staffing levels as they are (skeleton) Surely its not my problem that they cant allow me to have my holidays when i want to take them, this isnt the first time ive been asked to work instead but im just getting fed up of it now.
Page 3
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 11th Sep 17, 8:36 PM
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    TBagpuss
    First come is a grossly unfair way to allocate holiday, although far from uncommon. It puts some individuals at a major disadvantage, for example part timers who may well come in for the first time after the board is unveiled to discover all the best dates have already been taken.
    Originally posted by TELLIT01
    I can see it might be unfair, but only if it were set up in such a way that some people were able to make requests earlier than others. Our's doesn't work that way - there is no 'unveiling' of the 'board' (and it's available online so people don't need to be in the office to access it)

    So no-one is disadvantaged by being part time. A person may have less choice when they first join, but that would be true for your system, too.
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 12th Sep 17, 7:53 AM
    • 309 Posts
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    scd3scd4
    To cover 24/7/52 1 person on at all times, statutory holidays(no sick cover or overlaps) with 5 people you need contractual hours of 37.7hr per week.
    Originally posted by getmore4less

    168 hrs a month each. 12 hours shifts. Plus over-time and back up in high season. Its a core job with just 5 operators.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 12-09-2017 at 9:50 AM.
    • takman
    • By takman 12th Sep 17, 9:27 AM
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    takman
    Yep, like I posted I understand that. I am not aware this OP works in production or the issue is "shutdowns"

    I was replying to a company telling someone when to take holidays individually.

    Incidentally. We have a two weeks shut down mid year and one at xmas and don't get told when to take holiday.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    But if you have a two week shutdown presumably everyone has to use two weeks holiday up so you ARE being told when to take your holiday. Personally i wouldn't like that idea at all but I know some people don't mind it.


    Musle750 what did you hope to achieve by posting this thread or did you just want to have a little rant?.

    I assume you already knew the legal side of things and also know that some people are in better situations and some are in worse situations when it comes to holiday.
    Where I work holiday approval varies alot even between departments. "Direct" employees have to book certain dates well in advance and there is a strict number of people allowed off each day (unless they have a good reason). "Indirect" employees have similar rules but there is far more flexibility because we manage our own workloads and have a good understanding of staffing levels required.

    But the best "advice" I can give you is to work out what holidays you want next year and book them now or as soon as possible.
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 12th Sep 17, 9:45 AM
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    scd3scd4
    But if you have a two week shutdown presumably everyone has to use two weeks holiday up so you ARE being told when to take your holiday. Personally i wouldn't like that idea at all but I know some people don't mind it.

    Originally posted by takman
    No, we can come in and assist. We are part of the shutdown but can still take holiday as normal. The point I was making is shut down does NOT mean you have to take compulsory holiday.

    Shut down does not have to mean everything if turned off. Maintain has to be undertaken at least once a year on heavy or complicated plant.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 12-09-2017 at 9:47 AM.
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 12th Sep 17, 12:23 PM
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    jobbingmusician
    No, we can come in and assist. We are part of the shutdown but can still take holiday as normal. The point I was making is shut down does NOT mean you have to take compulsory holiday.

    Shut down does not have to mean everything if turned off. Maintain has to be undertaken at least once a year on heavy or complicated plant.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    Obviously this varies from company to company, and from role to role, though. Isn't that just common sense?
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    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 12th Sep 17, 12:52 PM
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    scd3scd4
    Obviously this varies from company to company, and from role to role, though. Isn't that just common sense?
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    Who said it doesn't or isn't? I made a comment, someone tried to correct me and I corrected them about how MY company works.

    The original point which is getting lost but not by me. Is I have not heard of a company who allocate holiday individually. Telling Bod when to take hes leave and John hes. I know what happens at Fords and large manufacturers. But the OP doesn't work for their likes so the comparison is meaningless. Most companies don't tell individuals when to take their holidays.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 12-09-2017 at 1:04 PM.
    • takman
    • By takman 12th Sep 17, 1:10 PM
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    takman
    No, we can come in and assist. We are part of the shutdown but can still take holiday as normal. The point I was making is shut down does NOT mean you have to take compulsory holiday.

    Shut down does not have to mean everything if turned off. Maintain has to be undertaken at least once a year on heavy or complicated plant.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    I know of a few local manufacturing companies who are pretty small and when they have an annual shutdown it is literally a whole site shutdown. Everybody has to take the 1 - 2 weeks off as holiday and has no choice about coming in.
    But even if 1 or two people wanted to come in they simply couldn't do their job because other members of staff who support them would not be there.


    Who said it doesn't or isn't? I made a comment, someone tried to correct me and I corrected them about how MY company works.

    The original point which is getting lost but not by me. Is I have not heard of a company who allocate holiday individually. Telling Bod when to take hes leave and John hes. I know what happens at Fords and large manufacturers. But the OP doesn't work for their likes so the comparison is meaningless. Most companies don't tell individuals when to take their holidays.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    The OP isn't being told when to take their holidays, all they have been told is that the dates they have tried to book are unavailable. So they will have to book some other days where less people are off.
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 12th Sep 17, 1:10 PM
    • 309 Posts
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    scd3scd4
    Ive submitted my holiday form 2 months before i want to take them ive been told i cant have them because someone else is off, My holidays run from Jan to Dec and i get 30 days a year (yes im lucky). However with staffing levels as they are (skeleton) Surely its not my problem that they cant allow me to have my holidays when i want to take them, this isnt the first time ive been asked to work instead but im just getting fed up of it now.
    Originally posted by Muscle750
    Mate, at my work the Union would not entertain issues with staff numbers preventing holidays. If they are understaffed, sickness or recruiting. Thats HRs problem regardless of if some on here like it or not. To be frank you need to get smart.

    Get in early. Have at least two holiday dates to full back on. Get holiday approved in writing or email before you book anything. At my work we do a lot of compromising. Someone wants a birthday off and swaps with a weekend or a bank holiday......
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 12th Sep 17, 1:18 PM
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    scd3scd4
    I know of a few local manufacturing companies who are pretty small and when they have an annual shutdown it is literally a whole site shutdown. Everybody has to take the 1 - 2 weeks off as holiday and has no choice about coming in.
    But even if 1 or two people wanted to come in they simply couldn't do their job because other members of staff who support them would not be there.




    The OP isn't being told when to take their holidays, all they have been told is that the dates they have tried to book are unavailable. So they will have to book some other days where less people are off.
    Originally posted by takman
    Already explained and answered numerous times.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 12-09-2017 at 1:24 PM.
    • takman
    • By takman 12th Sep 17, 1:25 PM
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    takman
    I have already said I know this. I was answering to how I work in my company not others..........now I have explained it again.

    No one said he was being told. The reply was to some telling him companies can tell you when to take holiday. That is true but not in the type of work he does. Hence saying it means nothing then and still mean nothing.

    Have you missed the practical advice we are giving him........I am not playing Top Trumps!
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    It doesn't matter what type of work the OP does the law states that the employer can tell him when he has to take his holidays. So this means he has no legal right to challenge them refusing his holiday request. It doesn't matter what any other company does that is the law and nothing will change that.

    I have given the OP the best advice i can think of in a previous post:

    But the best "advice" I can give you is to work out what holidays you want next year and book them now or as soon as possible.
    Originally posted by takman
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 12th Sep 17, 1:39 PM
    • 309 Posts
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    scd3scd4
    It doesn't matter what type of work the OP does the law states that the employer can tell him when he has to take his holidays. So this means he has no legal right to challenge them refusing his holiday request. It doesn't matter what any other company does that is the law and nothing will change that.
    Originally posted by takman


    No not necessarily there are still rules......

    Under European law, the right to take holiday is based clearly on the need to protect workers' health, safety and welfare. It is unlawful for employers to put excessive or unreasonable hurdles in the way of workers who want to take their holiday.

    It has to be non discriminatory and has to give notice....

    European law expects employers to make the rules as clear as possible, to have a clear justification for them, and to operate them consistently and fairly.

    Many people have contracts on how their holidays work and how they are to be taken. Your boss can not just arbitrarily trump that, regardless of what he thinks he can do.


    So if you think bosses can do what they want to who they want then you are wrong and thats not the law. There are a multitude of conditions.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 12-09-2017 at 1:54 PM.
    • takman
    • By takman 12th Sep 17, 1:53 PM
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    takman
    No not necessarily there are still rules......

    Under European law, the right to take holiday is based clearly on the need to protect workers' health, safety and welfare. It is unlawful for employers to put excessive or unreasonable hurdles in the way of workers who want to take their holiday.

    It has to be non discriminatory and has to give notice....

    European law expects employers to make the rules as clear as possible, to have a clear justification for them, and to operate them consistently and fairly.

    Many people have contracts on how their holidays work and how they are to be taken. Your boss can not just arbitrarily trump that, regardless of what he thinks he can do.

    So if you think bosses can do what they want to who they want then you are wrong and thats not the law.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    None of that applies in this case because the OP has simply been told they can't have some specific dates off work because there are other staff members off. Which is perfectly fair and reasonable and how it works in almost all work places across the country.

    If you want to have a debate with someone and you have the viewpoint that the employer was wrong to tell the OP they couldn't have the time off then sangie595 is the person to dicuss this with as they are about as expert as you can get on this forum.

    As stated, they can tell you when you can and can't take holidays, so yes, it's your problem. All the employer is required to do is to permit you to take them at some point in the holiday year. So either find some dates that are suitable to them, or ask them to do so for you.
    Originally posted by sangie595
    • scd3scd4
    • By scd3scd4 12th Sep 17, 2:04 PM
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    scd3scd4
    None of that applies in this case because the OP has simply been told they can't have some specific dates off work because there are other staff members off. Which is perfectly fair and reasonable and how it works in almost all work places across the country.

    If you want to have a debate with someone and you have the viewpoint that the employer was wrong to tell the OP they couldn't have the time off then sangie595 is the person to dicuss this with as they are about as expert as you can get on this forum.
    Originally posted by takman

    I never said it applied to the OP. I just corrected you on one of your non factual posts to me about the law.
    I prefer to use government sites or CA, but cheers.
    Last edited by scd3scd4; 12-09-2017 at 2:26 PM.
    • Undervalued
    • By Undervalued 12th Sep 17, 2:11 PM
    • 3,112 Posts
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    Undervalued
    None of that applies in this case because the OP has simply been told they can't have some specific dates off work because there are other staff members off. Which is perfectly fair and reasonable and how it works in almost all work places across the country.

    If you want to have a debate with someone and you have the viewpoint that the employer was wrong to tell the OP they couldn't have the time off then sangie595 is the person to dicuss this with as they are about as expert as you can get on this forum.
    Originally posted by takman
    Exactly!

    A hard and fast contractual right to a specific holiday booking procedure is really quite rare so unless the OP in this thread has one (unlikely) or can show that he is being discriminated against on one of the few legally protected grounds (even more unlikely) then the employer is doing nothing wrong.

    As has been said repeatedly the OP has a right to his statutory holiday at some point during the year. However beyond that, apart from the fairly minimal notice the employer has to give to force an employee to take holiday, the OP's rights are limited to say the least.
    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 12th Sep 17, 2:26 PM
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    steampowered
    It is unlawful for employers to put excessive or unreasonable hurdles in the way of workers who want to take their holiday.

    European law expects employers to make the rules as clear as possible, to have a clear justification for them, and to operate them consistently and fairly.
    Originally posted by scd3scd4
    Out of interest, which legislation are you referring to?

    The Working Time Regulations 1998 state as follows:

    (2) A worker’s employer may require the worker—
    (a)to take leave to which the worker is entitled under regulation 13(1); or
    (b)not to take such leave,
    on particular days, by giving notice to the worker in accordance with paragraph (3).
    (3) A notice under paragraph (1) or (2)—
    (a)may relate to all or part of the leave to which a worker is entitled in a leave year;
    (b)shall specify the days on which leave is or (as the case may be) is not to be taken and, where the leave on a particular day is to be in respect of only part of the day, its duration; and
    (c)shall be given to the employer or, as the case may be, the worker before the relevant date.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 12th Sep 17, 2:35 PM
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    getmore4less
    Out of interest, which legislation are you referring to?

    The Working Time Regulations 1998 state as follows:

    (2) A worker’s employer may require the worker—
    (a)to take leave to which the worker is entitled under regulation 13(1); or
    (b)not to take such leave,
    on particular days, by giving notice to the worker in accordance with paragraph (3).
    (3) A notice under paragraph (1) or (2)—
    (a)may relate to all or part of the leave to which a worker is entitled in a leave year;
    (b)shall specify the days on which leave is or (as the case may be) is not to be taken and, where the leave on a particular day is to be in respect of only part of the day, its duration; and
    (c)shall be given to the employer or, as the case may be, the worker before the relevant date.
    Originally posted by steampowered
    you missed the most imprtant part of regulation 15.

    (5) Any right or obligation under paragraphs (1) to (4) may be varied or excluded by a relevant agreement.


    The employer can make up any rules they like.

    all it needs is one term the contract "all holidays need to be approved" to throw out section 15.
    • xXMessedUpXx
    • By xXMessedUpXx 12th Sep 17, 7:40 PM
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    xXMessedUpXx
    your company is behaving illegally - you are ENTITLED to your holiday and thus must be allowed to take it. If your employer wants to cancel your holiday, they must give at least as much notice as the length of the leave. And the gov.uk site is VERY clear - 'Although employers can refuse to give leave at a certain time, they can’t refuse to let workers take the leave at all.'
    Originally posted by jobbingmusician
    does that include holiday rolling over? only asking as if we don't take full holiday by March it gets lost and can't be taken (which usually leads to a rush of holidays being taken between January and march.
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    • steampowered
    • By steampowered 12th Sep 17, 10:46 PM
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    steampowered
    you missed the most imprtant part of regulation 15.

    (5) Any right or obligation under paragraphs (1) to (4) may be varied or excluded by a relevant agreement.

    The employer can make up any rules they like.

    all it needs is one term the contract "all holidays need to be approved" to throw out section 15.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    I must have not been clear.

    The point I was making - i.e. what the legislation I quoted says - is that the employer can tell people when to take holidays. There doesn't need to be anything said in the employment contract for that to be the case.

    The bit you posted is to allow for specific rules around holidays to be agreed in employment contracts but to be honest this is pretty rare (and is presumably there for the benefit of the employee - given that the base case already allows the employer to dictate when leave is taken).
    Last edited by steampowered; 12-09-2017 at 10:56 PM.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 12th Sep 17, 11:02 PM
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    getmore4less
    I must have not been clear.

    The point I was making is that the employer can tell people when to take holidays. The legislation says that. There doesn't need to be anything about it in an employment contract.

    The bit you posted is to allow for specific rules around holidays to be agreed in employment contracts but to be honest this is pretty rare (and is presumably for the benefit of the employee - given that the base case allows the employer to pretty much dictate when leave is taken).
    Originally posted by steampowered
    I understood what you were pointing out for the benefit of other.

    but you are mistaken overriding of this section is extremely common with terms like holiday needs approvals or some other scheme/booking systems.

    The employer can override the defaults and increase the benefit to themselves not the employee with contractual terms.

    in particular the notice periods get removed with any form of approval system unless it specifies new ones.

    By default under 15.1 if an employee asks for holiday if the employer does not exercise 15.2b to say no it is in effect approved by changing to a positive approval system that is also removed.
    • Savvy_Sue
    • By Savvy_Sue 13th Sep 17, 1:37 AM
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    Savvy_Sue
    does that include holiday rolling over? only asking as if we don't take full holiday by March it gets lost and can't be taken (which usually leads to a rush of holidays being taken between January and march.
    Originally posted by xXMessedUpXx
    I believe you can't 'lose' the statutory entitlement, but if your employer gives more than that then yes, you could lose that.

    Example: my employer gives 33 days including bank holidays, which is statutory entitlement plus 5. We are allowed - by agreement - to carry forward up to five, ensuring that we do take stat entitlement each year. BUT if you don't take what you've carried forward within three months of the new leave year starting, it's gone.

    We do currently allow staff on maternity leave to carry the full 33 days forward (less whatever they've already taken before going on m/l) but if someone is long term sick and needs to carry leave forward, they can only carry forward the statutory minimum, not the extra five days.
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