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  • FIRST POST
    • eithnemc
    • By eithnemc 9th Sep 17, 12:00 PM
    • 22Posts
    • 1Thanks
    eithnemc
    Turnkey question
    • #1
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:00 PM
    Turnkey question 9th Sep 17 at 12:00 PM
    Our new home is turnkey. We paid the builder for the extras and he paid the suppliers as listed. Except for the tiler. We apparently have to pay him separately.
    I'm suspicious about this as he has not produced an invoice, just an a4 page with his name mobile number and price. None of the works broken down or that the builder paid him £500 pc sum.
    This tiler also took 2 weeks holiday which meant our handover was delayed.
    He became very aggressive when we said this wasn't a proper invoice. What should we do? We haven't paid him yet!
Page 1
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 9th Sep 17, 12:07 PM
    • 7,591 Posts
    • 8,190 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    • #2
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:07 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:07 PM
    He's obviously self employed. What would you expect a "proper" invoice to have? Itemised every bit of tile adhesive, spacer, the different tiles, his labour? What difference would it make?
    You agreed a fee for a whole job, he's done the whole job. Pay him.

    (oh BTW, tllers do get to have holidays. Its hardly his fault that your move coincided with his holiday. Did you really expect him to cancel it? If it didn't suit you could have used another one or if the builder wouldn't allow that, blame the builder.)
    • G_M
    • By G_M 9th Sep 17, 12:09 PM
    • 41,921 Posts
    • 48,519 Thanks
    G_M
    • #3
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:09 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:09 PM
    Who instructed the tiler? You or the builder?
    Who specified the work?
    Did you get a broken down quote for the work from the tiler?
    Is the tiler VAT registered? A sole trader? Ltd company?
    Does the work done meet your expectations?
    If not, what needs doing?
    • eithnemc
    • By eithnemc 9th Sep 17, 12:27 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    eithnemc
    • #4
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:27 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:27 PM
    He's obviously self employed. What would you expect a "proper" invoice to have? Itemised every bit of tile adhesive, spacer, the different tiles, his labour? What difference would it make?
    You agreed a fee for a whole job, he's done the whole job. Pay him.

    (oh BTW, tllers do get to have holidays. Its hardly his fault that your move coincided with his holiday. Did you really expect him to cancel it? If it didn't suit you could have used another one or if the builder wouldn't allow that, blame the builder.)
    Originally posted by AnotherJoe

    Hi Joe I would expect the invoice to state work done ie kitchen bathroom breaking down value for each etc invoice to have his address - invoice number..
    The difference is why do we only pay this supplier and not the other suppliers which is making me suspicious
    It had to be this tiler, builder would not let any other on site. Just found out he lied about holiday. He was tiling another house
    We agreed a fee but he is not declaring the full fee on his supposedly invoice. Why? If anything goes wrong I only have a piece of paper for the lesser amount
    Last edited by eithnemc; 09-09-2017 at 12:37 PM.
    • eithnemc
    • By eithnemc 9th Sep 17, 12:34 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    eithnemc
    • #5
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:34 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:34 PM
    Who instructed the tiler? You or the builder?
    Who specified the work?
    Did you get a broken down quote for the work from the tiler?
    Is the tiler VAT registered? A sole trader? Ltd company?
    Does the work done meet your expectations?
    If not, what needs doing?
    Originally posted by G_M
    Tiler sent text of breakdown,
    we don't know if he is vat registered as builder employed him...
    The work is fine it's just he is suspicious we have to pay tiler and not the other suppliers.
    His supposedly invoice does not include his address nor the £500 pc sum the builder paid him. So to us this is not a true invoice
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 9th Sep 17, 12:42 PM
    • 206 Posts
    • 223 Thanks
    HampshireH
    • #6
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:42 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Sep 17, 12:42 PM
    The difference is why do we only pay this supplier and not the other suppliers which is making me suspicious

    We agreed a fee but he is not declaring the full fee on his supposedly invoice. Why? If anything goes wrong I only have a piece of paper for the lesser amount
    Originally posted by eithnemc
    Because you agreed to when you signed on the dotted line.

    He doesn't need to add the money paid to the builder for part of the work as this would be a different contract with a different person.

    You wont have a lesser amount on paper. You will have the amount you paid for.

    If you are happy with his work I would suggest just paying him and taking your query up with the builder if it is that much of a problem. This person has bills to pay and from what I can see he has done the job he was asked to do?
    • eithnemc
    • By eithnemc 9th Sep 17, 1:44 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    eithnemc
    • #7
    • 9th Sep 17, 1:44 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Sep 17, 1:44 PM
    Because you agreed to when you signed on the dotted line.

    He doesn't need to add the money paid to the builder for part of the work as this would be a different contract with a different person.

    You wont have a lesser amount on paper. You will have the amount you paid for.

    If you are happy with his work I would suggest just paying him and taking your query up with the builder if it is that much of a problem. This person has bills to pay and from what I can see he has done the job he was asked to do?
    Originally posted by HampshireH
    I just think there is a bit of hood winking the vat man and I don't want to be part of this...
    • rosyw
    • By rosyw 9th Sep 17, 1:57 PM
    • 488 Posts
    • 764 Thanks
    rosyw
    • #8
    • 9th Sep 17, 1:57 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Sep 17, 1:57 PM
    I just think there is a bit of hood winking the vat man and I don't want to be part of this...
    Originally posted by eithnemc
    Why do you think this? Is there any mention of VAT? The current income threshold for someone to have to be VAT registered is £85K a year, would a tiler be earning that? If there IS a fiddle going on you would not be "part" of it.
    Years ago someone my husband did a lot of business with tried to fiddle the VAT man by claiming back VAT charged to his non registered business through his registered business, HE was the one in trouble, not my husband, it caused us some inconvenience due to an extra VAT inspection,but this was so they could see the invoices we had sent and check he hadn't made them up.

    Just pay the man and get it out of the way!
    • HampshireH
    • By HampshireH 9th Sep 17, 1:59 PM
    • 206 Posts
    • 223 Thanks
    HampshireH
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 17, 1:59 PM
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 17, 1:59 PM
    Not all businesses are VAT registered. It depends on their revenue per annum.

    From the Gov dot UK website;

    "You must register for VAT if:
    your VAT taxable turnover is more than £85,000 (the ‘threshold’) in a 12 month period
    you expect to go over the threshold in a single 30 day period
    You’ll also need to register if you only sell goods or services that are exempt from VAT or ‘out of scope’ but you buy goods for more than £85,000 from EU VAT-registered suppliers to use in your business.
    You may have to register for VAT if you take over a business that’s already registered."


    I'm guessing his accountant is better placed to advise him of this.

    It is possible he isn't VAT registered and that he is complaint with the law.

    *post at the same time as rosy
    • eithnemc
    • By eithnemc 9th Sep 17, 2:18 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    eithnemc
    Do you think I have the right to ask for an invoice dated with his address and work itemised for each room
    • rosyw
    • By rosyw 9th Sep 17, 2:24 PM
    • 488 Posts
    • 764 Thanks
    rosyw
    Why not ask for an itemised receipt, with his address - for your records? He has to be paid no matter what though.
    • Slithery
    • By Slithery 9th Sep 17, 2:30 PM
    • 285 Posts
    • 365 Thanks
    Slithery
    No.

    Why would he even have an itemised cost for each room?
    • phill99
    • By phill99 9th Sep 17, 2:39 PM
    • 7,986 Posts
    • 7,224 Thanks
    phill99
    I am a builder and I find tradesmens approach to invoicing hit and miss. I require my subbies to give me an invoice with their name, address and phone number on it as well as a brief narrative of the work they have done. Its only fair that I have a record of what they are invoicing me for.


    If I was a homeowner I would expect that same.


    An awful lot of tradesmen seem to think that acting professionally and providing customers with invoices doesn't apply to them.
    Eat vegetables and fear no creditors, rather than eat duck and hide.
    • Cardinal-Red
    • By Cardinal-Red 9th Sep 17, 2:57 PM
    • 643 Posts
    • 144 Thanks
    Cardinal-Red
    It might be the very fact that he is not VAT registered that is driving this.

    If the builder subcontracts the work to the tiler who is not VAT registered, then the builder would have to charge you VAT on a supply which would not have VAT on when invoiced to you directly by the tiler; therefore saving you 20%?

    (I'm ignoring the VAT question of whether the works are zero rated for now as there seems to be an assumption that VAT is involved here).
    The above facts belong to everybody; the opinions belong to me; the distinction is yours to draw...
    • societys child
    • By societys child 9th Sep 17, 3:16 PM
    • 4,811 Posts
    • 5,239 Thanks
    societys child
    You agreed a price, pay it.

    What difference would a room by room breakdown make?

    It's not as if you're trying to get out of paying is it . . .

    • martindow
    • By martindow 9th Sep 17, 3:57 PM
    • 7,261 Posts
    • 4,050 Thanks
    martindow
    I'm not clear whether you agree with the figure on the invoice or are suggesting that you would like to deduct the 500 Pounds the builder has paid from it.

    If it is the correct figure and you are happy with the work then give him a cheque. If he is above board a cheque would be fine. What I would not do is pay with cash.
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 9th Sep 17, 4:33 PM
    • 5,354 Posts
    • 4,697 Thanks
    00ec25
    some rather ill informed comment regarding invoices on here

    the contents of an invoice are laid out in tax law and apply whether the trader is VAT registered or not

    see here:
    https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/invoices-what-they-must-include

    a scrap of paper as described is not an invoice and , as OP suspects, is probably related to the tiler aiming to keep the payment out of his books. Whatever you do don't pay cash - unless you get a sizeable discount....
    • eithnemc
    • By eithnemc 9th Sep 17, 5:29 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    eithnemc
    some rather ill informed comment regarding invoices on here

    the contents of an invoice are laid out in tax law and apply whether the trader is VAT registered or not

    see here:
    https://www.gov.uk/invoicing-and-taking-payment-from-customers/invoices-what-they-must-include

    a scrap of paper as described is not an invoice and , as OP suspects, is probably related to the tiler aiming to keep the payment out of his books. Whatever you do don't pay cash - unless you get a sizeable discount....
    Originally posted by 00ec25
    Thank you for clarifying what I already suspected...
    • eithnemc
    • By eithnemc 9th Sep 17, 5:30 PM
    • 22 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    eithnemc
    I am a builder and I find tradesmens approach to invoicing hit and miss. I require my subbies to give me an invoice with their name, address and phone number on it as well as a brief narrative of the work they have done. Its only fair that I have a record of what they are invoicing me for.


    If I was a homeowner I would expect that same.


    An awful lot of tradesmen seem to think that acting professionally and providing customers with invoices doesn't apply to them.
    Originally posted by phill99
    Thank you for clarifying this...
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 10th Sep 17, 3:05 PM
    • 7,591 Posts
    • 8,190 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    Do you think I have the right to ask for an invoice dated with his address and work itemised for each room
    Originally posted by eithnemc
    You have the right to ask for an invoice written in boilerplate on velum delivered by a unicorn.

    He is under no obligation to provide one.

    Seriously, please explain what difference it would make to you if he writes "tiling £600" or "tiling room 1 £200, tiling room 2 £200, tiling room 3 £200, discount for 3 rooms £100, total cost £500"

    ??

    And why its part of a VAT fiddle if he doenstw rte "spaces £25, adhesive £47, 3 rooms £297, blah blah blah"

    Pay him by cheque and stop being so ridiculuous, if i was him i'd be thinking you are trying to get out of paying. Once he provides an invoice by room you'll want the exact number of tiles paid per room, once he does that you'll want the square meterage of adhesive, ad infinitum.

    Just pay him, hes done the work. Jeez. I had a plaster at my house last year. he wanted £300, i agreed, i paid him. I didn't care about bits of paper, just the quality of the work.
    Last edited by AnotherJoe; 10-09-2017 at 5:10 PM.
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