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  • FIRST POST
    • trinidadone
    • By trinidadone 8th Sep 17, 12:10 PM
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    trinidadone
    Death by dangerous cycling law would not improve road safety
    • #1
    • 8th Sep 17, 12:10 PM
    Death by dangerous cycling law would not improve road safety 8th Sep 17 at 12:10 PM
    Following the huge news coverage of Charlie Alliston, now 20, whom was convicted of wanton and furious driving on a push bike, will be sentence shortly, with a maximum sentence of two years.

    Kim Briggs, 44, was killed in central London last year while crossing the road by Alliston.

    Mrs Briggs husband, Matt wants to propose a change in law to include death by dangerous driving for cyclists. This is being supported by MP Andrea Leadsom - but would a propose change in the law improve road safety?

    Do we actually know how many cyclists on our streets kill pedestrians? Is there not existing legislation in place? Police enforcement?

    We know there has been as much as 500 deaths a year occur by motorists, and I suspect under 5 a year from cyclists (just a guess)

    With such a small proportion from cyclists, my own view is the proposals will not improve road safety, although my deepest sympathy goes out to the Briggs family.
    Trinidad - The hottest place to go
Page 1
    • Retrogamer
    • By Retrogamer 8th Sep 17, 2:19 PM
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    Retrogamer
    • #2
    • 8th Sep 17, 2:19 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Sep 17, 2:19 PM
    Perhaps more focus and attention should be given to pedestrians who often walk out into the path of oncoming traffic without checking the road is clear first.
    • Johnmcl7
    • By Johnmcl7 8th Sep 17, 2:27 PM
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    Johnmcl7
    • #3
    • 8th Sep 17, 2:27 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Sep 17, 2:27 PM
    It was a terrible accident but it has been blown out of proportion, the only reason it's made so many headlines is because a death caused by a cyclist is so unusual whereas deaths caused by motor vehicles are so common they don't make the headlines. While I think it's a terrible loss for the husband, the calls for additional laws make it look like cycling killing pedestrians is a common problem and they're getting away with it. In addition, in his case the cyclist didn't get away with it and if the same happened again I'm sure they could use the same obscure law again.

    The Guardian had a good article putting it into perspective:

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/25/perspective-needed-with-cycling-death-statistics
    • boliston
    • By boliston 8th Sep 17, 2:31 PM
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    boliston
    • #4
    • 8th Sep 17, 2:31 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Sep 17, 2:31 PM
    Perhaps more focus and attention should be given to pedestrians who often walk out into the path of oncoming traffic without checking the road is clear first.
    Originally posted by Retrogamer
    just been to berlin and it's the complete opposite there - pedestrians will wait to cross a street even if no cars are in sight!
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 8th Sep 17, 4:02 PM
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    bouicca21
    • #5
    • 8th Sep 17, 4:02 PM
    • #5
    • 8th Sep 17, 4:02 PM
    People were prosecuted for this kind of offence in the 19th century, there's nothing new about 'furious driving' by cyclists.
    • jack_pott
    • By jack_pott 8th Sep 17, 4:37 PM
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    jack_pott
    • #6
    • 8th Sep 17, 4:37 PM
    • #6
    • 8th Sep 17, 4:37 PM
    Matt Briggs is campaigning for a change in the law following the death of his wife.
    Chris Boardman is campaigning for cycle safety after his mother was killed whilst cycling.
    Train crash victims campaign for new rail signalling system.
    Families of drug victims campaign for changes to drug laws.
    Etc. etc. etc.

    Being an expert on what it feels like to lose a loved one doesn't make you an expert on road safety/railway signals/whatever. Furthermore, the brain judges probability by how easily something springs to mind, and not how likely it really is, so anyone who has had close involvement with an accident is not competent to judge risk.

    If you want to know about road safety, ask a statistician or a traffic engineer, not a victim/traffic cop/ambulance driver.
    • brat
    • By brat 9th Sep 17, 7:41 AM
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    brat
    • #7
    • 9th Sep 17, 7:41 AM
    • #7
    • 9th Sep 17, 7:41 AM
    If you want to know about road safety, ask a statistician or a traffic engineer, not a victim/traffic cop/ambulance driver.
    Originally posted by jack_pott
    As a traffic cop, I deal with fatal/life altering RTCs on a regular basis. I'm LIO (lead investigating officer) for fatal & life changing collisions, and I'm sure we could offer a pretty accurate insight into the causes of serious road traffic collisions. I'm not sure why you think we couldn't.

    The quality of data used by statisticians in my opinion is one of the problems with understanding how best to deal with road safety. The data is too blunt, too capable of being clumped into categories that are too generic for proper understanding.
    For me, if you want to understand collision causation, ask a police collision investigator.
    Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    • tho
    • By tho 9th Sep 17, 8:39 AM
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    tho
    • #8
    • 9th Sep 17, 8:39 AM
    • #8
    • 9th Sep 17, 8:39 AM
    I don't see why not. The fact is that the guys bike was dangerous, and not allowed on the road. If you drive a track racing car flat out through central London one of the charges (amongst many) if you hit someone would be death by dangerous driving.

    Yes people stepping out are a problem. But if the guy had brakes it would have limited the impact (don't believe for a second what he said in court). Furious riding of a bicycle or whatever it was isn't appropriate. Maybe not a new law, but a modification of the death by dangerous driving law I think is suitable.
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 9th Sep 17, 9:22 AM
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    Johno100
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 17, 9:22 AM
    • #9
    • 9th Sep 17, 9:22 AM
    Perhaps more focus and attention should be given to pedestrians who often walk out into the path of oncoming traffic without checking the road is clear first.
    Originally posted by Retrogamer
    Likewise perhaps we could reduce cycling fatalities by giving more focus and attention to cyclists who ride up the inside of left turning HGVs and get killed.

    Oh but we can't say that without being accused of "victim blaming".
    • Johno100
    • By Johno100 9th Sep 17, 9:37 AM
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    Johno100
    People were prosecuted for this kind of offence in the 19th century, there's nothing new about 'furious driving' by cyclists.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    That is the issue, relying on a 19th century law to prosecute 21st century crime. A crime with a maximum sentence of just 2 years imprisonment.
    • brat
    • By brat 9th Sep 17, 11:42 AM
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    brat
    Likewise perhaps we could reduce cycling fatalities by giving more focus and attention to cyclists who ride up the inside of left turning HGVs and get killed.

    Oh but we can't say that without being accused of "victim blaming".
    Originally posted by Johno100
    It's usually only you bleating about victim blaming Johno, using it one way, as above, then the other way, in your determination to vilify cyclists.
    Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    • boliston
    • By boliston 9th Sep 17, 1:19 PM
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    boliston
    I don't see why not. The fact is that the guys bike was dangerous, and not allowed on the road. If you drive a track racing car flat out through central London one of the charges (amongst many) if you hit someone would be death by dangerous driving......
    Originally posted by tho
    This is not a fair analogy as a track car can be made street legal - also the speed of the cyclist was not an issue as it was in the region of 20mph which is probably slower than many powered vehicles in that part of london
    • tho
    • By tho 9th Sep 17, 1:30 PM
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    tho
    This is not a fair analogy as a track car can be made street legal - also the speed of the cyclist was not an issue as it was in the region of 20mph which is probably slower than many powered vehicles in that part of london
    Originally posted by boliston
    Its a perfectly fair anology. The bike could have been made legal by fitting brakes.
    • marks87
    • By marks87 9th Sep 17, 11:34 PM
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    marks87
    just been to berlin and it's the complete opposite there - pedestrians will wait to cross a street even if no cars are in sight!
    Originally posted by boliston
    I was in Toronto last month and was told off by a police officer for crossing against the lights without a car in sight!
    • Pennywise
    • By Pennywise 11th Sep 17, 8:15 AM
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    Pennywise
    just been to berlin and it's the complete opposite there - pedestrians will wait to cross a street even if no cars are in sight!
    Originally posted by boliston
    It's a German thing. Completely different attitude. They are "programmed" to follow rules and abide by laws. It's just the way they are.

    At a place where I once worked, we had 2 Germans working in the quality control department. They were awesome. Absolute sods for sticking to the rules and checking every last detail, and not accepting half-baked excuses or "near enough" answers from the suppliers nor shop floor when anything was wrong. Exactly the kind of people you want in a QC department. Trouble was, of course, they were too strict and couldn't understand the concept of something not mattering if it wasn't quite right - no logical thought at all - so we had to be VERY specific with the specifications to allow more margin of error in things that didn't matter as much.

    I can exactly visualise a German stood at a pedestrian crossing waiting for the light to change even though there wasn't a single vehicle in sight. It's in their dna.
    • bouicca21
    • By bouicca21 11th Sep 17, 8:46 AM
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    bouicca21
    That is the issue, relying on a 19th century law to prosecute 21st century crime. A crime with a maximum sentence of just 2 years imprisonment.
    Why is killing someone by reckless cycling in the 21st century any different to killing them in the 19th? The 'weapon' is still a bike, the victim is still dead.

    Much more interesting to discuss is why it is so difficult to get a manslaughter conviction when someone is killed in an RTA.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 11th Sep 17, 8:47 AM
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    Gloomendoom
    I can exactly visualise a German stood at a pedestrian crossing waiting for the light to change even though there wasn't a single vehicle in sight. It's in their dna.
    Originally posted by Pennywise
    I got told off in Munich by a bystander for crossing in those circumstances. When I asked why it was a problem. The best that they could come was that it was a bad example to children. Despite it being after midnight in an area completely devoid of both traffic and children.

    At a place where I once worked, we had 2 Germans working in the quality control department. They were awesome. Absolute sods for sticking to the rules and checking every last detail, and not accepting half-baked excuses or "near enough" answers from the suppliers nor shop floor when anything was wrong. Exactly the kind of people you want in a QC department. Trouble was, of course, they were too strict and couldn't understand the concept of something not mattering if it wasn't quite right - no logical thought at all - so we had to be VERY specific with the specifications to allow more margin of error in things that didn't matter as much.
    Apparently, that was the reason the Germans had a shortage of radio and other electronic equipment in WW2. A comparison of captured British equipment and their own revealed that British sets were not as sophisticated as their German equivalents but reliable and good enough to get the job done.

    A quote attributed to Hermann Göring: "There is nothing the British do not have. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops. After the war is over I'm going to buy a British radio set - then at least I'll own something that has always worked".


    Getting back to cycling. It is also interesting to note that it is rare to see a German cyclist wearing helmet and also that there are strict rules regarding cycling on a pavement not designated as a cycleway. Basically, it's children only. Riding while wearing ear/headphones is also banned.
    Last edited by Gloomendoom; 11-09-2017 at 8:57 AM.
    Advice; it rhymes with mice. Advise; it rhymes with wise.
    • trinidadone
    • By trinidadone 11th Sep 17, 11:44 AM
    • 2,940 Posts
    • 1,107 Thanks
    trinidadone
    It's a German thing. Completely different attitude. They are "programmed" to follow rules and abide by laws. It's just the way they are.

    At a place where I once worked, we had 2 Germans working in the quality control department. They were awesome. Absolute sods for sticking to the rules and checking every last detail, and not accepting half-baked excuses or "near enough" answers from the suppliers nor shop floor when anything was wrong. Exactly the kind of people you want in a QC department. Trouble was, of course, they were too strict and couldn't understand the concept of something not mattering if it wasn't quite right - no logical thought at all - so we had to be VERY specific with the specifications to allow more margin of error in things that didn't matter as much.

    I can exactly visualise a German stood at a pedestrian crossing waiting for the light to change even though there wasn't a single vehicle in sight. It's in their dna.
    Originally posted by Pennywise
    Its a German thing

    They are "programmed" to follow rules and laws.

    its in their dna.

    are these not stereotypes???
    Trinidad - The hottest place to go
    • brat
    • By brat 11th Sep 17, 12:22 PM
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    brat
    Why is killing someone by reckless cycling in the 21st century any different to killing them in the 19th? The 'weapon' is still a bike, the victim is still dead.
    Originally posted by bouicca21
    We're worth more now than then.

    The max sentence for causing death by dangerous driving is 14 years now, it was 5 years in the 90s. There was no offence of causing death by careless driving until 2008 IIRC.


    Much more interesting to discuss is why it is so difficult to get a manslaughter conviction when someone is killed in an RTA.
    There is a real resistance to use manslaughter in such cases, because there are other more appropriate offences.

    My nearest to getting a manslaughter charge to court was this case, which was effectively a 'game' of 'chicken' which went badly wrong. The driver drove towards his mate who was standing in the middle of the road refusing to move. They both tried to avoid each other at the last minute, but both moved in the same direction.
    The initial decision was to charge manslaughter because it had more culpable intent than is usual for the specific driving offence. But even then, there was a change of mind and the S1 RTA offence was preferred.
    Last edited by brat; 11-09-2017 at 2:15 PM.
    Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler.
    • Gloomendoom
    • By Gloomendoom 11th Sep 17, 12:23 PM
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    Gloomendoom
    are these not stereotypes???
    Originally posted by trinidadone
    I've worked in Germany and for German firms in the UK.

    Stereotypes exist for a reason.
    Advice; it rhymes with mice. Advise; it rhymes with wise.
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