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    • C8957
    • By C8957 7th Sep 17, 8:58 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 2Thanks
    C8957
    M25 speeding
    • #1
    • 7th Sep 17, 8:58 PM
    M25 speeding 7th Sep 17 at 8:58 PM
    Hi,
    I was travelling south on the m25 last night (I think around junction 10?) and the variable speed limit changed to 20 mph even though the motorway was fairly quiet (I didn't see it change to this , I just got to part of the motorway that had this limit displayed) . I started to slow down , but literally nobody else slowed down so it would have been very dangerous to drive at 20. I think I slowed down to about 40, but even then people were over taking me . Not one person drove at 20.

    Has anyone else had an experience like this ? I am very worried as I'll probably get a ticket , and I haven't been driving long so I could also lose my license
Page 2
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 9th Sep 17, 6:07 PM
    • 1,443 Posts
    • 970 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    The minimum enforceable speed limit is 30 mph.
    Anything below this is recommendatory.
    Originally posted by Marktheshark
    in what context?

    All those 20mph zones aren't enforceable?
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 9th Sep 17, 6:07 PM
    • 603 Posts
    • 309 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    The minimum enforceable speed limit is 30 mph.
    Anything below this is recommendatory.
    Originally posted by Marktheshark
    It's actually 20 mph.
    • Nathaniel Essex
    • By Nathaniel Essex 10th Sep 17, 5:25 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Nathaniel Essex
    I think the general rule is, as long as you are going under 70, you probably won't get a ticket on the M25 whilst the variable speed limit is in place. I go no faster that 10mph over the variable speed limit but see people speeding past me and not slowing down at either the gantry or the new cameras.
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 10th Sep 17, 5:51 PM
    • 1,443 Posts
    • 970 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    I think the general rule is, as long as you are going under 70, you probably won't get a ticket on the M25 whilst the variable speed limit is in place. I go no faster that 10mph over the variable speed limit but see people speeding past me and not slowing down at either the gantry or the new cameras.
    Originally posted by Nathaniel Essex
    No, that's not great advice. You should stick to whatever the signs are saying (you can always use the buffer provided by the guidlines too) and stick to NSL when they aren't illuminated. If you pass a gantry showing 50 at 70, you will get a ticket if a camera is installed and functional.
    • soolin
    • By soolin 10th Sep 17, 6:26 PM
    • 59,482 Posts
    • 42,180 Thanks
    soolin
    I think the general rule is, as long as you are going under 70, you probably won't get a ticket on the M25 whilst the variable speed limit is in place. I go no faster that 10mph over the variable speed limit but see people speeding past me and not slowing down at either the gantry or the new cameras.
    Originally posted by Nathaniel Essex
    You only have to read the posts on http://forums.pepipoo.com/ to see that you are incorrect , many people have been caught at lower limits when the managed motorway speed restrictions are in place.
    I'm the Board Guide for the Ebay Board , Charities Board , Dosh & Disability , Up Your Income and the Local MoneySaving-England board which means I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. However, do remember, board guides don't read every post. If you spot an illegal or inappropriate post then please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Any views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com
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    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 10th Sep 17, 7:24 PM
    • 2,407 Posts
    • 1,566 Thanks
    Car 54
    It's actually 20 mph.
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    Can you provide a source for that "fact"?
    • Nathaniel Essex
    • By Nathaniel Essex 10th Sep 17, 9:49 PM
    • 55 Posts
    • 33 Thanks
    Nathaniel Essex
    No, that's not great advice. You should stick to whatever the signs are saying (you can always use the buffer provided by the guidlines too) and stick to NSL when they aren't illuminated. If you pass a gantry showing 50 at 70, you will get a ticket if a camera is installed and functional.
    Originally posted by Mercdriver
    More a statement from my personal observation than advice.
    • deaston
    • By deaston 10th Sep 17, 11:55 PM
    • 469 Posts
    • 262 Thanks
    deaston
    Hi,
    I was travelling south on the m25 last night (I think around junction 10?) and the variable speed limit changed to 20 mph even though the motorway was fairly quiet (I didn't see it change to this , I just got to part of the motorway that had this limit displayed) . I started to slow down , but literally nobody else slowed down so it would have been very dangerous to drive at 20. I think I slowed down to about 40, but even then people were over taking me . Not one person drove at 20.

    Has anyone else had an experience like this ? I am very worried as I'll probably get a ticket , and I haven't been driving long so I could also lose my license
    Originally posted by C8957
    I was on the M25 last year in a similar situation. It was very late and the signs started flashing "incident, slow down" and the limit reduced to something like 30mph. This went on for mile after mile with no obvious incident.

    The traffic started to speed up to the point that I was doing 30mph and I had lorries roaring past me and kept getting honked. It was pretty scary.

    Suddenly, the NSL sign appeared. No incident was ever seen. This happens quite often.

    I actually contacted the Highways Agency after this particular event to try and point out that the reduced limit came far too early which causes drivers to end up ignoring the warning and, either way, there was no incident. They sent back an email that may as well have read "We couldn't care less."
    • deaston
    • By deaston 11th Sep 17, 12:00 AM
    • 469 Posts
    • 262 Thanks
    deaston
    I think the general rule is, as long as you are going under 70, you probably won't get a ticket on the M25 whilst the variable speed limit is in place.
    Originally posted by Nathaniel Essex
    And if you wear a balaclava when you mug someone, you probably won't get caught, so it's ok to do it.

    I think, actually, the general rule is that, when it says 50mph, you should do no more than 50mph. It's often for the safety of roadworkers, but don't let that fact get in the way of you getting home a couple of minutes earlier.
    • AnotherJoe
    • By AnotherJoe 11th Sep 17, 12:18 AM
    • 7,599 Posts
    • 8,198 Thanks
    AnotherJoe
    I was on the M25 last year in a similar situation. It was very late and the signs started flashing "incident, slow down" and the limit reduced to something like 30mph. This went on for mile after mile with no obvious incident.

    The traffic started to speed up to the point that I was doing 30mph and I had lorries roaring past me and kept getting honked. It was pretty scary.

    Suddenly, the NSL sign appeared. No incident was ever seen. This happens quite often.

    I actually contacted the Highways Agency after this particular event to try and point out that the reduced limit came far too early which causes drivers to end up ignoring the warning and, either way, there was no incident. They sent back an email that may as well have read "We couldn't care less."
    Originally posted by deaston
    Yeh this is par for the course on the M4 usually theres nothing at all after miles of speed limit signs and even accident warnings etc, but even if there is its after about ten miles of these by which time everyone has sped up thinking its another false alarm.
    • C8957
    • By C8957 20th Oct 17, 1:32 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    C8957
    Thanks everyone . I haven’t heard anything yet and it’s been way over a month so I should be ok
    • photome
    • By photome 20th Oct 17, 6:47 AM
    • 12,777 Posts
    • 8,253 Thanks
    photome
    Can you provide a source for that "fact"?
    Originally posted by Car 54
    article from local paper in 2016

    Police do not currently enforce 20mph speed limits in Norfolk.
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 20th Oct 17, 7:26 AM
    • 2,407 Posts
    • 1,566 Thanks
    Car 54
    article from local paper in 2016

    Police do not currently enforce 20mph speed limits in Norfolk.
    Originally posted by photome
    The discussion (over a month ago now) arose from a statement that any limit under 20 mph limit was unenforceable, and a request for evidence of that "fact".

    "Not enforced" is not "unenforceable". Rather in the way that I am allowed to run in the London Marathon, buy choose not to.
    • Warwick Hunt
    • By Warwick Hunt 20th Oct 17, 12:25 PM
    • 603 Posts
    • 309 Thanks
    Warwick Hunt
    The discussion (over a month ago now) arose from a statement that any limit under 20 mph limit was unenforceable, and a request for evidence of that "fact".

    "Not enforced" is not "unenforceable". Rather in the way that I am allowed to run in the London Marathon, buy choose not to.
    Originally posted by Car 54
    But it wasn't under 20 was it?
    • Car 54
    • By Car 54 20th Oct 17, 12:44 PM
    • 2,407 Posts
    • 1,566 Thanks
    Car 54
    But it wasn't under 20 was it?
    Originally posted by Warwick Hunt
    You're right, the first suggestion was that "The minimum enforceable speed limit is 30 mph."

    Then someone said "It's actually 20 mph".

    AFAIK no-one has yet provided any substantiation for either statement.
    • NineDeuce
    • By NineDeuce 20th Oct 17, 1:31 PM
    • 440 Posts
    • 389 Thanks
    NineDeuce
    Yeah, you are in deep trouble here. I cant see a way out of it....
    • TadleyBaggie
    • By TadleyBaggie 20th Oct 17, 1:51 PM
    • 2,431 Posts
    • 1,755 Thanks
    TadleyBaggie
    On Pepipoo I recently queried if 20 MPH was enforceable using HADECS, someone came up with the official type approval. Limits below 30 are not enforceable by RADAR based devices (except HADECS apparently) but other means of speed detection (average etc.) are OK.
    • IanMSpencer
    • By IanMSpencer 20th Oct 17, 2:05 PM
    • 1,070 Posts
    • 853 Thanks
    IanMSpencer
    We had discussions with the police over 20mph limits when they were to be implemented locally.

    The police position was that they do not have the resources to routinely enforce such limits, and the guidelines are such that any 20mph limit should be "enforced" by road design. So in the case we had, this reduced a previously dual carriageway 30mph road though a village centre to a single carriageway with right turn bay, and the divided lanes were narrowed, but with a low lip which does allow the use of an unmarked centre island to avoid parked cars for example, and a particularly vicious speed hump just before a difficult to sight zebra crossing which is just about impossible to top 20mph without bottoming the car. It has achieved a significant decrease in the maximum speeds which topped 60mph.

    So as a matter of resourcing, local councils are told that 20mph will not be routinely enforced by the police. That is not to say that the police will not enforce if there is a particular issue, much as they will not routinely enforce speed limits around and about unless there is evidence of a particular issue.

    At a park, there was a 10mph limit imposed on the access road, and I was told by the officer that it was unenforceable, and I think that was related to case law. I wonder if the case law went back to the days when speedos sometimes didn't register below 10mph. However, the police are not the arbiters of what can actually be enforced in the courts, but if they will not attempt to enforce, then it amounts to the same thing.
    • alanSF
    • By alanSF 20th Oct 17, 3:24 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    alanSF
    No, the minimum is 20mph as the original poster saw.
    • Nearly Old
    • By Nearly Old 20th Oct 17, 5:05 PM
    • 315 Posts
    • 194 Thanks
    Nearly Old
    Can you provide a source for that "fact"?
    Originally posted by Car 54
    20mph Zones are non-enforceable and rely on road design (traffic calming, etc) to encourage/force drivers to slow down.

    20mph Authorised Speed Limits established by the relevant traffic orders and signed with the correct signs with a red border are, like any other speed limit fully enforceable.

    The 20mph limit now appears in the table for speed limit enforcement: http://www.roadlawbarristers.co.uk/2016/08/speeding-what-is-the-10-plus-2-rule-and-what-does-it-mean/
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