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  • FIRST POST
    • tir21
    • By tir21 7th Sep 17, 3:53 PM
    • 948Posts
    • 181Thanks
    tir21
    could i describe this repair by Shorade as fraudulent?
    • #1
    • 7th Sep 17, 3:53 PM
    could i describe this repair by Shorade as fraudulent? 7th Sep 17 at 3:53 PM
    i want to leave a review describing this company as - 'in my experience' - fraudulent, but dont want to get sued for libel

    they said they would replace a broken headlight washer valve but just glued it into position with resin

    https://ibb.co/gBsg6v

    The MD later admited it was not up to their usual standard and paid for it to be repaired elsewhere
    Last edited by tir21; 07-09-2017 at 3:57 PM.
Page 3
    • tir21
    • By tir21 8th Sep 17, 10:45 PM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    And how have they gained financially or personally out of a repair you've said over and over again they were doing FOR FREE?
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    because the inplicit implication of offering to do a repair is that you do it correctly - or report if for some reason the repair cannot be done because a bracket is missing
    • tir21
    • By tir21 8th Sep 17, 10:53 PM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21

    They didn't make any money from this bodge, all they did was avoid spending it
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    read the definition of fraud again

    fraud:
    wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain.

    financial gain can include saving money - as well as making it you dingbat
    Last edited by tir21; 09-09-2017 at 12:27 AM.
    • tir21
    • By tir21 8th Sep 17, 11:03 PM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    You haven't been defrauded OF anything. It's a simple enough word to understand the meaning of.
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    http://wikidiff.com/defraud/fraud

    Fraud is a noun for the practice of lying to someone in order to gain something, either money or some other beneficial intangible. It is also the word for a person who commits fraud. Another term for this kind of person is a fraudster. This term is mainly used in British English, but can be found in some US publications as well.

    Defraud is a verb that describes a practice of lying to someone or an institution to steal money specifically. This includes acts like identity theft and electronic hacking.
    Last edited by tir21; 08-09-2017 at 11:15 PM.
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 12:32 AM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    its just so disappointing to finally buy a new car- take it to the 'best' body shop in the midlands and have it returned with much more damage than it went in with

    it really knocks ones faith in human integrity when a company promotes itself as 'prestige' but has no scruples about deceiving its customers

    I paid twice as much to get the job done there - and you would like to think that would engender a greater level of honesty
    Last edited by tir21; 09-09-2017 at 12:36 AM.
    • bigadaj
    • By bigadaj 9th Sep 17, 6:30 AM
    • 9,939 Posts
    • 6,346 Thanks
    bigadaj
    OP you've asked a question had a number of responses which all disagree with you, there's no point posting and then arguing against the consensus, move on.

    It's interesting that your possts haven't been deleted as they are potentially libellous just in asking the question.
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 9:08 AM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    OP you've asked a question had a number of responses which all disagree with you, there's no point posting and then arguing against the consensus, move on.

    It's interesting that your possts haven't been deleted as they are potentially libellous just in asking the question.
    Originally posted by bigadaj
    they all disagree but no one can explain why the deception that was perpetrated by shorade does not constitute fraud. I've pointed out to them many times what the definition of fraud is but tbey don't seem to be able to take it on board. Between us, I dont think they are tbe brightest sparks in the box to be honest
    Last edited by tir21; 09-09-2017 at 9:14 AM.
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 9th Sep 17, 9:25 AM
    • 1,361 Posts
    • 897 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    OP you've asked a question had a number of responses which all disagree with you, there's no point posting and then arguing against the consensus, move on.

    It's interesting that your possts haven't been deleted as they are potentially libellous just in asking the question.
    Originally posted by bigadaj
    I suspect that's because the OP doesn't understand what fraud actually is.
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 9th Sep 17, 9:27 AM
    • 1,361 Posts
    • 897 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    they all disagree but no one can explain why the deception that was perpetrated by shorade does not constitute fraud. I've pointed out to them many times what the definition of fraud is but tbey don't seem to be able to take it on board. Between us, I dont think they are tbe brightest sparks in the box to be honest
    Originally posted by tir21
    No one has been defrauded. Being deceived or misled or being lied to doesn't mean you have been defrauded. They have not made any financial gain from what you say is deceit.
    • Nobbie1967
    • By Nobbie1967 9th Sep 17, 10:02 AM
    • 633 Posts
    • 735 Thanks
    Nobbie1967
    they all disagree but no one can explain why the deception that was perpetrated by shorade does not constitute fraud. I've pointed out to them many times what the definition of fraud is but tbey don't seem to be able to take it on board. Between us, I dont think they are tbe brightest sparks in the box to be honest
    Originally posted by tir21
    You are correct in that fraud can be either making a gain or avoiding an obligation by deception, but it this case you have not established that the garage had an obligation which they avoided. To quote your earlier statement:

    "they did not admit causing damage but said they would replace headlight washer valve as a good will gesture"

    As it was a goodwill gesture they were under no obligation and so no avoidance of that obligation took place. Of course, if you had taken them to court and got a ruling that they were liable for the damage then they would potentially be acting fraudulently by bodging rather than replacing.
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 10:19 AM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    No one has been defrauded. Being deceived or misled or being lied to doesn't mean you have been defrauded. They have not made any financial gain from what you say is deceit.
    Originally posted by Mercdriver
    you don't seem to know what defrauded means
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 10:32 AM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    thanks nobbie

    i can't believe it took until post 49 to get a good answer

    but by shorade saying they would fix the problem there was then no need for me to take them to court to establish they caused the damage

    I'm of the opinion that it is so obvious they caused the damage I am prepared to accuse them of fraud without getting said ruling in court. You see when I collected the car there was powder and scratches around the near side headlight washer. three days later i notuced a massive leak. They did not point out any problem with the car when I took it in so they must take responsibility
    Last edited by tir21; 09-09-2017 at 10:34 AM.
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 10:40 AM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    nobbie

    also in addition

    "As it was a goodwill gesture they were under no obligation and so no avoidance of that obligation took place"

    the trouble i have with your line of reasoning here is that a court could think you were wasting its time in attempting to get a company to admit causing the damage - if the company has already said it will fix the damage
    Last edited by tir21; 09-09-2017 at 10:43 AM.
    • Mercdriver
    • By Mercdriver 9th Sep 17, 10:59 AM
    • 1,361 Posts
    • 897 Thanks
    Mercdriver
    you don't seem to know what defrauded means
    Originally posted by tir21
    What is your financial loss and how have they deliberately deprived you of it?
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 11:11 AM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    What is your financial loss and how have they deliberately deprived you of it?
    Originally posted by Mercdriver
    just check out what defrauded means. Untill you understand the basics its going to be difficult to have any meaningful dialogue with you. thanks anyway though for your efforts
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 9th Sep 17, 11:25 AM
    • 269 Posts
    • 145 Thanks
    wgl2014
    You are basing the 'fraud' on the company not carrying out a repair the way you expected.
    If they said they would replace certain parts and then did not then fair enough they have not acted honestly.
    If they said they would repair the affected part, which is what it sounds like, and have repaired it (poorly) then they have not been dishonest.
    In any case it sounds like your car is back to how it should be so maybe time to move on......
    • Nobbie1967
    • By Nobbie1967 9th Sep 17, 11:39 AM
    • 633 Posts
    • 735 Thanks
    Nobbie1967
    nobbie

    also in addition

    "As it was a goodwill gesture they were under no obligation and so no avoidance of that obligation took place"

    the trouble i have with your line of reasoning here is that a court could think you were wasting its time in attempting to get a company to admit causing the damage - if the company has already said it will fix the damage
    Originally posted by tir21
    Yes,

    I think you're right on that, but a goodwill gesture does not prevent you from later exercising your legal rights, but it clearly has it's limitations as you have found as there is no contractual basis for the work done as a goodwill gesture. I agree they appear to have been trying to palm you off with a bodged repair, but legally it does not constitute fraud and it would therefore be unwise to state this publicly. Up to you of course🙂
    • debtdebt
    • By debtdebt 9th Sep 17, 12:06 PM
    • 274 Posts
    • 169 Thanks
    debtdebt
    About 3 years ago I had a Porsche 996 C4S. Got involved in a non fault accident and I picked this place as my preferred repairer. They did an amazing job and even fitted a performance exhaust that I was going to fit myself FOC due to the fact that the rear bumper would have to be taken off and replaced anyway. They also machine polished the whole car FOC too. Personally, I think they're a great company and well deserve to be linked with some of the high end marques.
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 12:22 PM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    About 3 years ago I had a Porsche 996 C4S. Got involved in a non fault accident and I picked this place as my preferred repairer. They did an amazing job and even fitted a performance exhaust that I was going to fit myself FOC due to the fact that the rear bumper would have to be taken off and replaced anyway. They also machine polished the whole car FOC too. Personally, I think they're a great company and well deserve to be linked with some of the high end marques.
    Originally posted by debtdebt
    i know i have always been unlucky with various incidents that have happened to my cars

    regarding shorade i would agree they are a very competent organisation when it comes to repairing damage you are paying them to repair. They did a good job respraying the part of the car i originally wanted fixed

    it seems their honesty comes into question when they damage your car. There would have been multiple people there who knew they were deceiving me with regards to the extent of the damage the car had suffered
    • tir21
    • By tir21 9th Sep 17, 12:32 PM
    • 948 Posts
    • 181 Thanks
    tir21
    yhh4
    You are basing the 'fraud' on the company not carrying out a repair the way you expected.
    If they said they would replace certain parts and then did not then fair enough they have not acted honestly.
    If they said they would repair the affected part, which is what it sounds like, and have repaired it (poorly) then they have not been dishonest.
    In any case it sounds like your car is back to how it should be so maybe time to move on......
    Originally posted by wgl2014
    they said they would replace the ruptured washer valve. After they had replaced it i said the washer cover was not corretly centered and was not flush.

    they agreed to address this issue so i left the car with them. When i collected it - it was no better and i told them this. The MD said it was within tolerance but i could tell it was not right.

    at this stage they should have informed me that it might not be as perfect as i was expecting because there was a bracket missing and they had had to glue the washer valve into position

    by allowing me to have to pay someone else to find out the bracket was missing they acted in a deceitful manner.

    i think this is evident due to the MD apologising when i showed him the photographs of the bodge. He said it was unacceptable and no longer claimed it was within tolerance

    If the MD said it was unacceptable why did his staff do it?

    my contention would be that it could never be fixed to an acceptable standard without the bits being in siti that the designers intended to be there
    Last edited by tir21; 09-09-2017 at 2:08 PM.
    • Hermione Granger
    • By Hermione Granger 9th Sep 17, 12:58 PM
    • 742 Posts
    • 1,142 Thanks
    Hermione Granger
    What is your financial loss and how have they deliberately deprived you of it?
    Originally posted by Mercdriver
    The OP doesn't have to have suffered a direct financial loss for fraud to have occurred.
    Everyone is getting tied up with the Wiki and dictionary definitions of fraud rather than the legal definition which is the important one.

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2

    Fraud by false representation

    (1)A person is in breach of this section if he—
    (a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and
    (b)intends, by making the representation—
    (i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
    (ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
    And as the OP's vehicle wasn't repaired to a satisfactory standard and the damaged parts were not initially replaced as promised, I think it's fair to say that the value of the car could well have diminished because of the repair.
    "Gain" and "loss" do not only apply to money but also to the value of goods:

    “Gain” and “loss”

    (1)The references to gain and loss in sections 2 to 4 are to be read in accordance with this section.
    (2)“Gain” and “loss”—
    (a)extend only to gain or loss in money or other property;
    (b)include any such gain or loss whether temporary or permanent;and “property” means any property whether real or personal (including things in action and other intangible property).
    (3)“Gain” includes a gain by keeping what one has, as well as a gain by getting what one does not have.
    (4)“Loss” includes a loss by not getting what one might get, as well as a loss by parting with what one has.
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