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  • FIRST POST
    • AngieAnn
    • By AngieAnn 7th Sep 17, 11:01 AM
    • 6Posts
    • 2Thanks
    AngieAnn
    Reducing an offer made due to lack of extension papers
    • #1
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:01 AM
    Reducing an offer made due to lack of extension papers 7th Sep 17 at 11:01 AM
    Hello,

    We are currently in the process of buying a house which has a ground floor extension. The solicitors have confirmed to us that there is no planning permission or a certificate of lawfulness for the extension and that we could take an Indemnity insurance from the current seller and continue with the purchase. The seller says that there was no planning permission required in this case.

    My question is, is that a valid reason to want to drop the price and how much would be acceptable?

    I would like to add that, the reason behind this is also the fact that houses in the area/neighbouring streets have dropped their sales prices in the last 2-3 months and the last few sales were lower than the ones from 3 months ago which indicates to us that we are currently overpaying. When taking the extension issue into account as well, we have become concerned. BTW there is no chain so we would not be causing delays to anyone but the seller (and ourselves).

    Thank you for your help
    Last edited by AngieAnn; 08-09-2017 at 8:27 AM.
Page 1
    • davidmcn
    • By davidmcn 7th Sep 17, 11:05 AM
    • 6,134 Posts
    • 5,883 Thanks
    davidmcn
    • #2
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:05 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:05 AM
    We are currently in the process of buying a house which has a ground floor extension. The solicitors have confirmed to us that there is no planning permission or a certificate of lawfulness for the extension and that we could take an Indemnity insurance from the current seller and continue with the purchase. The seller says that there was no planning permission required in this case.

    My question is, is that a valid reason to want to drop the price
    Originally posted by AngieAnn
    Not really, no. Has anyone suggested it might be? How old is the extension? Is there actually a problem with it other than the lack of paperwork?
    • steveodan
    • By steveodan 7th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    • 47 Posts
    • 17 Thanks
    steveodan
    • #3
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    • #3
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    Hi AngieAnn,

    Personally I would pay the Indemnity Insurance and move forward with the purchase at the agreed price. If you asked me for a discount I would not give one.

    Also how would you feel in reverse if prices had increased in the last 2 - 3 months and the seller asked you for more money to take account of this? Would you increase your offer in that instance?
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 7th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    • 23,971 Posts
    • 66,542 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    • #4
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    Single storeys often fall under Permitted Development and no paperwork is required for planning purposes. The whole point of Permitted Development is to reduce red tape. One only needs to check the extension against the rules for PD.

    https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/17/extensions

    So no, an extension that falls under PD with no paperwork is not a reason to drop the price. *No indemnity would be required* either as there's nothing to indemnify against.

    Even if it needed PP, it becomes lawful after 4 years. There's no demonstrable loss in value from the planning perspective.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • PField
    • By PField 7th Sep 17, 11:17 AM
    • 88 Posts
    • 66 Thanks
    PField
    • #5
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:17 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:17 AM
    The indemnity insurance will prmairy be to cover the lender and for the purchase to go ahead, but as others have said it is of no value and is buying with case, would be something you can dispense with. As you solicitor is also acting for the mortgage company, you may be obliged to obtain it.
    • G_M
    • By G_M 7th Sep 17, 11:37 AM
    • 41,985 Posts
    • 48,599 Thanks
    G_M
    • #6
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:37 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:37 AM
    1) how long ago was the extension built?

    2) have you checked if Planning Permissiion was required or whether it fell within Permtted Development?

    3) IF PP was required, and if it was built in the last (4, I think?) years, then either take out an indemnity policy or walk away

    4) Consider Building regulations too - far more relevant. To what standard was the construction?

    5) You are confusing price reduction because of the lack of PP, with the general markett prices in the area - which is your real concern?
    • Doozergirl
    • By Doozergirl 7th Sep 17, 11:45 AM
    • 23,971 Posts
    • 66,542 Thanks
    Doozergirl
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:45 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:45 AM
    The indemnity insurance will prmairy be to cover the lender and for the purchase to go ahead, but as others have said it is of no value and is buying with case, would be something you can dispense with. As you solicitor is also acting for the mortgage company, you may be obliged to obtain it.
    Originally posted by PField
    If it is PD then the OP's solicitor needs to do their job properly and not buy unnecessary policies because they don't know what Permitted Development is! They are acting on behalf of the mortgage lender, but lenders don't demand policies for perfectly legitimate extensions.
    Everything that is supposed to be in heaven is already here on earth.
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 7th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    • 5,233 Posts
    • 2,209 Thanks
    Crashy Time
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 17, 1:05 PM
    Hello,

    We are currently in the process of buying a house which has a ground floor extension. The solicitors have confirmed to us that there is no planning permission or a certificate of lawfulness for the extension and that we could take an Indemnity insurance from the current seller and continue with the purchase. The seller says that there was no planning permission required in this case.

    My question is, is that a valid reason to want to drop the price and how much would be acceptable for a 435k property?

    I would like to add that, the reason behind this is also the fact that houses in the area/neighbouring streets have dropped their sales prices in the last 2-3 months and the last few sales were lower than the ones from 3 months ago which indicates to us that we are currently overpaying. When taking the extension issue into account as well, we have become concerned. BTW there is no chain so we would not be causing delays to anyone but the seller (and ourselves).

    Thank you for your help
    Originally posted by AngieAnn

    You are definitely over-paying, you need to drop the price IMO, at least to last sold price for the street (IMO you will still lose out if rates rise or a price correction happens for another reason) If they took short cuts with the extension what else might not be up to scratch?
    • Wobblydeb
    • By Wobblydeb 7th Sep 17, 1:51 PM
    • 895 Posts
    • 1,399 Thanks
    Wobblydeb
    • #9
    • 7th Sep 17, 1:51 PM
    • #9
    • 7th Sep 17, 1:51 PM
    It might well have been built within permitted development rights. Even if it was, building regulations approval should have been received for quite a number of things. An indemnity policy will not pay out if there are rubbish foundations, dodgy wiring or incompetent plumbing.
    I've got a plan so cunning you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.
    • lincroft1710
    • By lincroft1710 7th Sep 17, 2:21 PM
    • 9,947 Posts
    • 8,006 Thanks
    lincroft1710
    After the chocolate teapot and chocolate fireguard is the indemnity policy. It will indemnify you should the council demand the extension be demolished, which never happens in 99.99999% of cases because planning and building regs depts of councils do not patrol the streets looking for non-compliant extensions!
    • juniordoc
    • By juniordoc 7th Sep 17, 2:31 PM
    • 229 Posts
    • 194 Thanks
    juniordoc
    It sounds like you offered too much in the first place and the lack of papers for the extension is a convenient excuse.
    I think if you try and pin it on the extension then the seller may refuse to accept a lower offer.
    You may have more chance if you present a reasoned argument that prices in the street are falling and that if they were to pull out of selling to you, then their house might get even less if they were to re-market it now.
    Good luck with your negotiations!
    • Grampus8
    • By Grampus8 7th Sep 17, 3:39 PM
    • 845 Posts
    • 1,112 Thanks
    Grampus8
    You are definitely over-paying, you need to drop the price IMO, at least to last sold price for the street (IMO you will still lose out if rates rise or a price correction happens for another reason) If they took short cuts with the extension what else might not be up to scratch?
    Originally posted by Crashy Time
    Good lord man do you ever stop?
    • glasgowdan
    • By glasgowdan 7th Sep 17, 3:47 PM
    • 2,594 Posts
    • 2,906 Thanks
    glasgowdan
    There's an ignore button Grampus, best option
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 7th Sep 17, 5:12 PM
    • 5,233 Posts
    • 2,209 Thanks
    Crashy Time
    There's an ignore button Grampus, best option
    Originally posted by glasgowdan

    Yes, just don`t be tempted to peek
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 7th Sep 17, 5:23 PM
    • 15,496 Posts
    • 13,827 Thanks
    AdrianC
    We are currently in the process of buying a house which has a ground floor extension. The solicitors have confirmed to us that there is no planning permission or a certificate of lawfulness for the extension and that we could take an Indemnity insurance from the current seller and continue with the purchase. The seller says that there was no planning permission required in this case.

    My question is, is that a valid reason to want to drop the price
    Originally posted by AngieAnn
    No, it is not.

    If there's a risk of enforcement action being taken, because PP was required and the development was done in the last few years, then the offered endowment policy will cover any costs arising.

    If there's no risk of enforcement action being taken, because it fell under permitted development or the development is old enough that the window for action has closed, then the presence or absence of PP is utterly irrelevant.

    I would like to add that, the reason behind this is also the fact that houses in the area/neighbouring streets have dropped their sales prices in the last 2-3 months and the last few sales were lower than the ones from 3 months ago which indicates to us that we are currently overpaying.
    Reducing your offer because you think the market's fallen is basically one-man gazundering. Would you like it if the vendor insisted you increase it because they thought the market had risen?

    If I were the vendor, and you tried it on me, you'd be told in no uncertain terms that there was no reduction - and, if there was no chain, I'd be strongly considering remarketing on the basis that you come across as the kind of buyer who is likely to either try another daft trick or simply pull out.
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 7th Sep 17, 5:29 PM
    • 5,233 Posts
    • 2,209 Thanks
    Crashy Time
    No, it is not.

    If there's a risk of enforcement action being taken, because PP was required and the development was done in the last few years, then the offered endowment policy will cover any costs arising.

    If there's no risk of enforcement action being taken, because it fell under permitted development or the development is old enough that the window for action has closed, then the presence or absence of PP is utterly irrelevant.



    Reducing your offer because you think the market's fallen is basically one-man gazundering. Would you like it if the vendor insisted you increase it because they thought the market had risen?

    If I were the vendor, and you tried it on me, you'd be told in no uncertain terms that there was no reduction - and, if there was no chain, I'd be strongly considering remarketing on the basis that you come across as the kind of buyer who is likely to either try another daft trick or simply pull out.
    Originally posted by AdrianC

    Yes yes, we all know that there are some people who believe that they are all powerful because they have a house to sell, blame that on years of brainwashing on TV, they probably catch on after a few months (years?) on the market though? A smart seller will take what the last house on the street sold for, or risk chasing the market down.......
    • parking_question_chap
    • By parking_question_chap 7th Sep 17, 5:32 PM
    • 1,408 Posts
    • 1,234 Thanks
    parking_question_chap
    You are definitely over-paying, you need to drop the price IMO, at least to last sold price for the street (IMO you will still lose out if rates rise or a price correction happens for another reason) If they took short cuts with the extension what else might not be up to scratch?
    Originally posted by Crashy Time
    You cannot possibly tell if somebody is overpaying without seeing photos of this house and those that have already sold recently.
    • Crashy Time
    • By Crashy Time 7th Sep 17, 5:33 PM
    • 5,233 Posts
    • 2,209 Thanks
    Crashy Time
    You cannot possibly tell if somebody is overpaying without seeing photos of this house and those that have already sold recently.
    Originally posted by parking_question_chap

    Fair point, do you have a link?
    • Slinky
    • By Slinky 7th Sep 17, 6:11 PM
    • 4,706 Posts
    • 20,401 Thanks
    Slinky
    You cannot possibly tell if somebody is overpaying without seeing photos of this house and those that have already sold recently.
    Originally posted by parking_question_chap
    But according to Crashy, anything and everything anybody is buying they are overpaying for.
    • bob bank spanker
    • By bob bank spanker 7th Sep 17, 6:48 PM
    • 538 Posts
    • 1,038 Thanks
    bob bank spanker
    But according to Crashy, anything and everything anybody is buying they are overpaying for.
    Originally posted by Slinky
    Crashy has already admitted that there is no price point at which he would enter the market, and that renting until you die but having cash in the bank provides better security. If anyone does (which I doubt) value his counsel concerning property transactions they are misguided.
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