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  • FIRST POST
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 8:38 AM
    • 15Posts
    • 7Thanks
    Time Poor
    PCN Admin Centre
    • #1
    • 7th Sep 17, 8:38 AM
    PCN Admin Centre 7th Sep 17 at 8:38 AM
    Hi all

    I have spent hours reading your forum, it is very informative, thank you.

    I received an NTK from PCN Admin Centre on behalf of Elite Management (Midlands) Ltd. No NTD was provided. The contravention date and time specifies a date and a time, but no period. The letter is dated more than 15 days later than the contravention date.The issue reason is "the vehicle was parked without the permission of the landowner on private property".

    They discuss "the driver agrees to be contractually bound.. data released...reasonable cause (under regulation 27..."

    They go on "Due to the breach of terms and conditions of parking as set out in the signage...we are members of an Accredited...follow code of practice... this is a Parking Charge and not a "penalty" or "fine"".

    "if you were not driver at the time, you should tell us.."

    "Photographic evidence is held..."

    The back of the PCN outlines how to pay, how to get advice and touches on the appeal process. Then under Hire Companies they mention liability under POFA.

    I am planning to follow your step one, but I feel that I should point out to them that they have lost the right to pass liability on to me as keeper as they have not adhered to POFA in a number of areas, I am hoping (probably naively) that they cancel it there. But if they don't then there are a number of other grounds to take to POFA including small signage, which is blue and discusses displaying pay and display tickets in the windscreen when there is not even a ticket machine, besides the fact that there are a number of terms and conditions on the sign, none of which are parking without permission of the landowner.

    I therefore wondered if you would check over my intended response and let me know your thoughts?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No.

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    If you want to make use of the Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 and you have not issued and delivered a parking charge notice to the driver in the place where the parking event took place, your Notice to Keeper must meet the strict requirements and timetable set out in the Schedule (in particular paragraph 9). You have failed to adhere to these strict requirements and you have taken longer than 15 days to post the NTK to me. You have, therefore, lost the right to pass liability on to me as the registered keeper.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.
    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Your opinions will be really appreciated.
Page 2
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 7th Sep 17, 12:36 PM
    • 3,198 Posts
    • 3,241 Thanks
    DoaM
    If post #1 has a cut/paste of the blue appeal wording from the NEWBIES thread - yes.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 1:12 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Time Poor
    Well almost. I just added a bit! I feel that I need to tell them they have lost the right to pass liability to me as the keeper.

    It seems the question to me is two fold:

    Follow the blue appeal wording from NEWBIES (maybe with a slight amendment?), Or go for the jugular and just a short sharp note. I have put examples of both below:

    OPTION 1
    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No.

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    If you want to make use of the Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 and you have not issued and delivered a parking charge notice to the driver in the place where the parking event took place, your Notice to Keeper must meet the strict requirements and timetable set out in the Schedule (in particular paragraph 9). You have failed to adhere to these strict requirements and you have taken longer than 15 days to post the NTK to me. You have, therefore, lost the right to pass liability on to me as the registered keeper.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.
    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Your opinions will be really appreciated.

    OPTION 2

    I am the keeper, not the driver at the time and I reserve my right not to name the driver.

    You have failed to follow the strict timescale laid down in POFA 2012 and taken longer than the 15 days to send the NTK to me. You have, therefore, lost the right to pass liability on to me as registered keeper.

    I invite you to cancel the charge or send me a POPLA code so that I can use this failure and other appeal points in my appeal to POPLA.
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 1:13 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Time Poor
    At the moment it seems that 2 members favour option 1 and one member favours option 2.

    Anyone else?
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Sep 17, 1:31 PM
    • 10,197 Posts
    • 9,330 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    The standard appeal is for those who don't have a "Golden Ticket". Even Coupon-Mad who wrote the standard appeal confirms this and only yesterday siad on this forum if you have a sure fire "golden ticket" use that. Just do a forum search for the last week looking for "golden ticket" to see what I mean.

    Look, the PPCs are well aware of our "standard appeal". They get lots of them and have a standard reply because they know that a certain percentage of them have no "golden ticket".

    Quentin is right inasmuch as the standard appeal will get you a POPLA code. I am suggesting that, faced with incontrovertible evidence that you know they haven't a leg to stand on, they may well fold now and save the POPLA stage and their £27 fee.

    Because they have left the BPA, they may not feel inclined to offer you a POPLA code. I would double check with the BPA what is there understanding re an ex-member who left them after the contravention event. You may need their reply in writing should matters progress to court.

    So I would stick to the one point appeal, but if you are in doubt, go with the one point appeal and then add.

    "Should you wish to ignore this clear cut breach of POFA, then be assured that I would also raise the following points at POPL
    A" then add the kitchen sink in the blue standard appeal.
    Last edited by Guys Dad; 07-09-2017 at 1:50 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 17, 1:47 PM
    • 50,114 Posts
    • 63,496 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Quentin is right inasmuch as the standard appeal will get you a POPLA code. I am suggesting that, faced with incontrovertible evidence that you know they haven't a leg to stand on, they may well fold now and save the POPLA stage and their £27 fee.
    Agreed, make it clear they missed the 14 day deadline.

    Because they have left the BPA, they may not feel inclined to offer you a POPLA code.
    This.

    I reckon these last remaining ones might just be cancelled as they are unlikely to bother (perhaps) with POPLA which the PPCs don't like. Clearly Elite decided to 'Trade Body Shop' and chose to hop to the IPC inthe hope of winning more appeals (which they will...) and then they'll use Gladstones to threaten or try court claims.

    So yes it's a ''phew'' moment, and don't use that car park again.

    Do you know you can legitimately park on a single or double yellow to collect and load a pre-paid item from adjacent premises? Loading and unloading is an exemption in the 'real world' of Council PCNs and the even better thing about yellow lines is, Council CEO's can't even print a PCN until they observed for at least five minutes - and you'd see them lurking in that time! And you are actually allowed the time it reasonably takes to collect/load an item, up to 20 minutes in fact.

    I always look to completely avoid private car parks unless using the retailer on site.

    Use yellow lines on street as they are designed for (as long as there is no loading ban shown by 'kerb blips' in extra dabs of yellow paint). Not for shopping/paying for items, only collecting pre-paid. Takeaways - being bulky and hot/difficult to carry, can be argued to be exempt if pre-ordered/paid.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 07-09-2017 at 1:51 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 4:16 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Time Poor
    I have never been in any doubt that I wish to use my "Golden Ticket", the question to me was whether to focus on one point or whether to add that one point into the template so that I am covered for other things that I don't fully understand!

    I read the Golden Ticket post from yesterday too and it left me a little confused as it seemed the recommendation was to build the one point into the template rather than focus on one point?

    Guys Dad obviously feels very strong about making a one point argument only and I am happy to go this route, but I would just like to ask one question of Coupon Mad. - in #25 you said "Agreed, make it clear they missed the 14 day deadline." - but you didn't make your opinion known as to whether to go with the one point argument or build it into the blue template? Sorry to put you on the spot as i am sure it was purposeful
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 4:39 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Time Poor
    I have just called BPA. I spoke to a lady there who said she is one of the people who is responsible for deciding on appeals. She said that it is not quite as clear cut as just relying on the 15 day period. She said that it would be better for me to appeal using a number of factors. I explained a couple of things like - size of sign, colour of sign, no parking meter, no mention of permission of land owner on private land in t&cs.

    She said this will be particularly important as the fact that the letter was created after the move to IAS (or whatever the other body is called) means that they might not rely on POFA.

    Any thoughts? I am worrying a little now that POFA might not be my "golden ticket"! In any case, she seemed confident that there seemed to be a lot of reasons that I could win an appeal regardless of who it was so I am not disheartened. it just means more work than I planned!
    Last edited by Time Poor; 07-09-2017 at 4:44 PM.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Sep 17, 4:46 PM
    • 7,294 Posts
    • 7,448 Thanks
    pappa golf
    POPLa must be given , even by a company that have moved , if at the time of the offence they were BPA members

    however , dependent on the "reference" they got from the BPA at the time of leaving , they may not wish to offer a POPLa code ,

    failure to supply a code by the relivent ATA (at the time of the incident ) would make progression "tricky" to say the least
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 7th Sep 17, 4:48 PM
    • 7,294 Posts
    • 7,448 Thanks
    pappa golf
    I have just called BPA. I spoke to a lady there who said she is one of the people who is responsible for deciding on appeals. She said that it is not quite as clear cut as just relying on the 15 day period. She said that it would be better for me to appeal using a number of factors. I explained a couple of things like - size of sign, colour of sign, no parking meter, no mention of permission of land owner on private land in t&cs.

    She said this will be particularly important as the fact that the letter was created after the move to IAS (or whatever the other body is called) means that they might not rely on POFA.

    Any thoughts? I am worrying a little now that POFA might not be my "golden ticket"! In any case, she seemed confident that there seemed to be a lot of reasons that I could win an appeal regardless of who it was so I am not disheartened. it just means more work than I planned!
    Originally posted by Time Poor

    YES , the "lady at the BPA has nothing to do with appeals , appeals are done by an independent company , the way she spoke , dhe was probably the tea lady
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 5:21 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Time Poor
    I might be using incorrect terminology. I am paraphrasing what she said. But she did sound knowledgeable.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 17, 5:28 PM
    • 50,114 Posts
    • 63,496 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Errrrmmm...why did you call the Trade Body which props up the scammers?

    [Removed] or whichever shining example of Haywards Heath's finest answered the phone, do not decide on appeals. They don't hear appeals. That's not what the BPA do.

    She said that it is not quite as clear cut as just relying on the 15 day period
    She lied.

    Think which side the BPA represent. The very first reply you had here, was from Half_way, whose signature bears the legend:

    From the Plain Language Commission: "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    No idea why you spoke to them, possibly telling them who was driving too? Hope not, but at least they won't assist Elite by passing on whatever you said, since Elite have jumped ship away from the BPA.

    Honestly it matters not what you say in first appeal (as long as you do not say who was driving/parked). You could say the moon was made of cheese, one point or ten, it doesn't matter. You do not have to 'cover yourself' for the later POPLA appeal, you can say whatever you want if POPLA appeal stage is reached, even if you used a one-point appeal now.

    You are overthinking a simple stage!
    Last edited by MSE ForumTeam2; 08-09-2017 at 11:43 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 5:35 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Time Poor
    Ok, point taken.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 17, 5:45 PM
    • 50,114 Posts
    • 63,496 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I am only frustrated that you listened to a woman at the BPA and called her 'knowledgeable'!

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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