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  • FIRST POST
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 8:38 AM
    • 24Posts
    • 8Thanks
    Time Poor
    PCN Admin Centre
    • #1
    • 7th Sep 17, 8:38 AM
    PCN Admin Centre 7th Sep 17 at 8:38 AM
    Hi all

    I have spent hours reading your forum, it is very informative, thank you.

    I received an NTK from PCN Admin Centre on behalf of Elite Management (Midlands) Ltd. No NTD was provided. The contravention date and time specifies a date and a time, but no period. The letter is dated more than 15 days later than the contravention date.The issue reason is "the vehicle was parked without the permission of the landowner on private property".

    They discuss "the driver agrees to be contractually bound.. data released...reasonable cause (under regulation 27..."

    They go on "Due to the breach of terms and conditions of parking as set out in the signage...we are members of an Accredited...follow code of practice... this is a Parking Charge and not a "penalty" or "fine"".

    "if you were not driver at the time, you should tell us.."

    "Photographic evidence is held..."

    The back of the PCN outlines how to pay, how to get advice and touches on the appeal process. Then under Hire Companies they mention liability under POFA.

    I am planning to follow your step one, but I feel that I should point out to them that they have lost the right to pass liability on to me as keeper as they have not adhered to POFA in a number of areas, I am hoping (probably naively) that they cancel it there. But if they don't then there are a number of other grounds to take to POFA including small signage, which is blue and discusses displaying pay and display tickets in the windscreen when there is not even a ticket machine, besides the fact that there are a number of terms and conditions on the sign, none of which are parking without permission of the landowner.

    I therefore wondered if you would check over my intended response and let me know your thoughts?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No.

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    If you want to make use of the Keeper Liability provisions in Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 and you have not issued and delivered a parking charge notice to the driver in the place where the parking event took place, your Notice to Keeper must meet the strict requirements and timetable set out in the Schedule (in particular paragraph 9). You have failed to adhere to these strict requirements and you have taken longer than 15 days to post the NTK to me. You have, therefore, lost the right to pass liability on to me as the registered keeper.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.
    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Your opinions will be really appreciated.
Page 1
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 7th Sep 17, 8:48 AM
    • 3,833 Posts
    • 5,410 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #2
    • 7th Sep 17, 8:48 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Sep 17, 8:48 AM
    from the top: why did your vehicle receive a ppc charge?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 9:21 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    • #3
    • 7th Sep 17, 9:21 AM
    • #3
    • 7th Sep 17, 9:21 AM
    Not quite sure what you are asking, but I will answer from a couple of angles.

    The car park is a retailer in a shopping area. The retailer closed at 5pm so the car park was empty. The driver parked in the car park in the evening to collect a takeaway. The takeaway is right next to the car park. They have done this numerous times in the past without any PCNs. I would guess the car was parked there maybe 7 or 8 minutes.

    The PCN states:
    Issue Reason: The vehicle was parked without permission of the landowner on private property.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Sep 17, 10:58 AM
    • 10,200 Posts
    • 9,342 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #4
    • 7th Sep 17, 10:58 AM
    • #4
    • 7th Sep 17, 10:58 AM
    I would start off with a simple out of time, so keeper is not liable appeal point.

    You have read the forum, so you know not to say who was driving. Just tell them to"bring it on, give me a POPLA code and I look forward to watching you lose your £27 at POPLA for a clear blatant failure to follow POFA". And add "my forum buddies are looking forward to chalking ghis up as another POPLA win".
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 7th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    • 3,489 Posts
    • 3,550 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #5
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    • #5
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    Isn't PPC-baiting frowned upon by MSE Towers?
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    • #6
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:09 AM
    So essentially:

    I am the keeper, not the driver at the time and I reserve my right not to name the driver.

    You have failed to follow the strict timescale laid down in POFA 2012 and taken longer than the 15 days to send the NTK to me. You have, therefore, lost the right to pass liability on to me as registered keeper.

    I invite you to cancel the charge or send me a POPLA code where I will take delight in costing you £27 using this and other appeal points with my appeal to POPLA.
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 11:14 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:14 AM
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:14 AM
    Upon reflection, I personally feel like I should tone down the take delight. Maybe I should put -

    I invite you to cancel the charge or send me a POPLA code so that I can use this failure and other appeal points in my appeal to POPLA.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Sep 17, 11:20 AM
    • 10,200 Posts
    • 9,342 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:20 AM
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:20 AM
    Upon reflection, I personally feel like I should tone down the take delight. Maybe I should put -

    I invite you to cancel the charge or send me a POPLA code so that I can use this failure and other appeal points in my appeal to POPLA.
    Originally posted by Time Poor
    No. The previous post was toned down (from mine). And I would let them know subtly that you are forum aided too.

    Others may disagree, but let the bullies know they are dealing with a toughie.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    • 33,227 Posts
    • 17,175 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #9
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    • #9
    • 7th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    I

    I have spent hours reading your forum, it is very informative, thank you.

    I am hoping (probably naively) that they cancel it there. But if they don't then there are a number of other grounds to take to POFA ........
    I therefore wondered if you would check over my intended response and let me know your thoughts?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No.

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car......

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.......
    Originally posted by Time Poor
    You have missed an important issue.

    You refer to escalating to "pofa", and demanded a popla code. Presumably you meant popla not pofa

    But you are dealing with an IPC company, so no chance of using popla.


    Read up in the Newbies FAQ thread about the futility of sppeals to IPC companies and resign yourself to the long haul of wait and see if they take you to Court.

    They have 6 years to take court action
    Last edited by Quentin; 07-09-2017 at 11:28 AM.
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 11:29 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    Quentin. Elite Management are BPA. Sorry, I meant POPLA
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Sep 17, 11:29 AM
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    Quentin
    When was the date of alleged incident?

    They are now ipc
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Sep 17, 11:36 AM
    • 10,200 Posts
    • 9,342 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    If they are, they had better inform their web manager. See at the bottom.

    http://www.elitemanagementonline.co.uk

    But that does make a difference. IAS/IPC tend to ride roughshod over silliy things such as POFA compliance and will say that, on balance, they believe that the keeper was the driver.

    So you need to state that definitely you were NOT the driver and that it is the PPCs job to prove you were noit vice versa if they think otherwise.
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 11:41 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    Ok I have tried again. I can see Guy's Dad wants to stick it to them and I applaud his proactive approach, but I always try to be tough without being rude (no offence). What do others think? In the meantime how about this? I will make it stronger if others agree?

    I am the keeper, not the driver at the time and I reserve my right not to name the driver.

    You have failed to follow the strict timescale laid down in POFA 2012 and taken longer than the 15 days to send the NTK to me. You have, therefore, lost the right to pass liability on to me as registered keeper.

    I invite you to cancel the charge or send me a POPLA code so that I can use this failure and other appeal points (supported and endorsed by the MSE forum) in my appeal to POPLA.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 7th Sep 17, 11:41 AM
    • 3,489 Posts
    • 3,550 Thanks
    DoaM
    http://www.bmpa.eu/companydata/Elite_Management_Midlands.html

    They moved to the IPC on 14th August 2017. What was the date of the alleged parking contravention?
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 11:45 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    Alleged parking contravention was before that date. Is that a phew moment?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Sep 17, 11:49 AM
    • 33,227 Posts
    • 17,175 Thanks
    Quentin
    Alleged parking contravention was before that date. Is that a phew moment?
    Originally posted by Time Poor
    Yes. This will be eligible for poplA.

    They are IPC now. You can ignore #9
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Sep 17, 11:51 AM
    • 33,227 Posts
    • 17,175 Thanks
    Quentin
    Ok I have tried again. I can see Guy's Dad wants to stick it to them and I applaud his proactive approach, but I always try to be tough without being rude (no offence). What do others think? In the meantime how about this? I will make it stronger if others agree?

    I am the keeper, not the driver at the time and I reserve my right not to name the driver.

    You have failed to follow the strict timescale laid down in POFA 2012 and taken longer than the 15 days to send the NTK to me. You have, therefore, lost the right to pass liability on to me as registered keeper.

    I invite you to cancel the charge or send me a POPLA code so that I can use this failure and other appeal points (supported and endorsed by the MSE forum) in my appeal to POPLA.
    Originally posted by Time Poor
    Don't mention that you are forum assisted!
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 11:59 AM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    leave forum off or assisted off?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 7th Sep 17, 12:06 PM
    • 33,227 Posts
    • 17,175 Thanks
    Quentin
    Don't mention forum at all!

    You may be better just sending the appeal in the blue text in the Newbies FAQ thread.

    This is tried and tested and designed to ensure you get a popla code
    • Time Poor
    • By Time Poor 7th Sep 17, 12:34 PM
    • 24 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    Time Poor
    more like the one that i put in post #1?
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