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  • FIRST POST
    • ceh209
    • By ceh209 6th Sep 17, 5:06 PM
    • 683Posts
    • 466Thanks
    ceh209
    Penalty fare station query
    • #1
    • 6th Sep 17, 5:06 PM
    Penalty fare station query 6th Sep 17 at 5:06 PM
    Not really about fares as such but train travel procedures...

    I have a season ticket to travel from an unmanned station with no ticket machine (home), to a station with gateline barriers (work). Home station is NOT a penalty fare station.

    Currently, my home station is the 'alternative' station whilst another station is closed for engineering work, meaning we have more trains due to diversions, and the station is currently manned, with tickets available to purchase from these staff.

    If the staff are asking to see a valid ticket to enter/exit my home station, am I REQUIRED to show them it? Don't really want a debate about whether it's just easier to show them it and move on with my life, was just wondering whether I have to!

    To potentially complicate things slightly, there is another entrance/exit to the station but only to an employer's site for which you would have to have a card to access... surely they can't stop you going through the station to access that site (even if that's not actually what I'm doing)?
    Excuse any mis-spelt replies, there's probably a cat sat on the keyboard
Page 1
    • esuhl
    • By esuhl 6th Sep 17, 5:44 PM
    • 7,529 Posts
    • 5,322 Thanks
    esuhl
    • #2
    • 6th Sep 17, 5:44 PM
    • #2
    • 6th Sep 17, 5:44 PM
    As I understand it, you must show your ticket to railway staff when asked. It doesn't make any difference whether it's a penalty fare station or not. If you don't have a ticket, then you'll be asked to pay the standard fare, rather than a penalty one.
    • molerat
    • By molerat 6th Sep 17, 5:51 PM
    • 16,996 Posts
    • 11,178 Thanks
    molerat
    • #3
    • 6th Sep 17, 5:51 PM
    • #3
    • 6th Sep 17, 5:51 PM
    You need to read Railway ByeLaws.

    You must show your ticket to an authorised person when asked.
    You must not go where signs state you must not i.e. "authorised persons only".
    You must obey instructions given by an authorised person.
    www.helpforheroes.org.uk/donations.html
    • ceh209
    • By ceh209 6th Sep 17, 9:57 PM
    • 683 Posts
    • 466 Thanks
    ceh209
    • #4
    • 6th Sep 17, 9:57 PM
    • #4
    • 6th Sep 17, 9:57 PM
    Hmm interesting... I do get your point... But i don't require a ticket to be at the station, just to be on a train. I have no problem showing my ticket to a guard on a train, or at the station with barriers. I feel an argument with GWR coming on! (I'm probably making a complaint atm anyway and was just wondering whether to tag this on)
    Excuse any mis-spelt replies, there's probably a cat sat on the keyboard
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Sep 17, 11:23 PM
    • 3,620 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #5
    • 6th Sep 17, 11:23 PM
    • #5
    • 6th Sep 17, 11:23 PM
    Hmm interesting... I do get your point... But i don't require a ticket to be at the station, just to be on a train. I have no problem showing my ticket to a guard on a train, or at the station with barriers. I feel an argument with GWR coming on! (I'm probably making a complaint atm anyway and was just wondering whether to tag this on)
    Originally posted by ceh209
    Why do you think you have a right to be on a railway station without a ticket just because there is no mechanical barrier?

    Why cannot a station operator stop you and ask to see your ticket before allowing you onto the platform?

    Isn't that second situation exactly the same as the first - except that the 'barrier' is human rather than a machine?

    Did you read and understand the earlier replies?
    Perhaps you didn't believe them.

    Condition 18 of National Rail Conditions of Travel spells it out:
    18. Inspection of Tickets

    18.1
    You must show and, if asked to do so by the staff of a Train Company, hand over for inspection your Ticket and any Railcard, photocard or other form of personal identification which your Ticket requires.
    .
    • ceh209
    • By ceh209 7th Sep 17, 9:08 AM
    • 683 Posts
    • 466 Thanks
    ceh209
    • #6
    • 7th Sep 17, 9:08 AM
    • #6
    • 7th Sep 17, 9:08 AM
    Why do you think you have a right to be on a railway station without a ticket just because there is no mechanical barrier?
    Originally posted by KeithP


    Because I could be using the station to access the employer's site (the employer being not related to the railway in any way other than having gate access from the station)


    However, I now see the actually relevant bit of the NRCoT which is nothing to do with inspection of tickets:


    "B4. When you are present in or using stations... you are also subject to the Railway Byelaws."
    Last edited by ceh209; 07-09-2017 at 9:15 AM.
    Excuse any mis-spelt replies, there's probably a cat sat on the keyboard
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 7th Sep 17, 2:13 PM
    • 3,620 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    KeithP
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 17, 2:13 PM
    • #7
    • 7th Sep 17, 2:13 PM
    Because I could be using the station to access the employer's site (the employer being not related to the railway in any way other than having gate access from the station)


    However, I now see the actually relevant bit of the NRCoT which is nothing to do with inspection of tickets:


    "B4. When you are present in or using stations... you are also subject to the Railway Byelaws."
    Originally posted by ceh209
    And my other questions???
    .
    • bartelbe
    • By bartelbe 7th Sep 17, 2:25 PM
    • 378 Posts
    • 261 Thanks
    bartelbe
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 17, 2:25 PM
    • #8
    • 7th Sep 17, 2:25 PM
    remove this please
    Last edited by bartelbe; 07-09-2017 at 2:30 PM.
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 13th Sep 17, 11:02 AM
    • 1,523 Posts
    • 634 Thanks
    Stigy
    • #9
    • 13th Sep 17, 11:02 AM
    • #9
    • 13th Sep 17, 11:02 AM
    Why do you think you have a right to be on a railway station without a ticket just because there is no mechanical barrier?

    Why cannot a station operator stop you and ask to see your ticket before allowing you onto the platform?

    Isn't that second situation exactly the same as the first - except that the 'barrier' is human rather than a machine?

    Did you read and understand the earlier replies?
    Perhaps you didn't believe them.

    Condition 18 of National Rail Conditions of Travel spells it out:
    Originally posted by KeithP
    The NRCoT is policy which forms no basis (in itself) should a person be prosecuted for an offence. The Byelaws and/or Regulation of Railways Act 1889 do form basis in law however.

    The OP is correct that he doesn't have to necessarily have a ticket to be at the station in question. In fact, pretty much all TOCs do NOT operate compulsory ticket area, so in theory, anybody can be at any station, without a valid train ticket if they so desire.

    That doesn't mean however, that a person can simply refuse to show a ticket without good reason, and if somebody is simply loitering around a station with not business to be there, then they can be removed (Byelaw 13 of the National Railway byelaws 2005 dictates this). So basically, if you intend to catch a train, your need to show a ticket. If you're awaiting Granny to get off a train, sobeit. If you use the latter as an excuse and then board a train, well that's a whole different ball game.

    As far as not physically being able to purchase a ticket goes; One cannot be Penalty fare'd in this instance and should be allowed to buy a ticket at their destination. This is irrespective of if the origin or destination stations are Penalty Fare stations. If they can't pay as they have no means, or it is thought they intended to avoid payment, then they should be reported by staff and be summonsed to court (potentially). If the OP was at a station and has alighted from a train, or intends to catch a train, and staff ask for a ticket, the staff should sell them one or allow their journey if unable to do so.


    Because I could be using the station to access the employer's site (the employer being not related to the railway in any way other than having gate access from the station)


    However, I now see the actually relevant bit of the NRCoT which is nothing to do with inspection of tickets:


    "B4. When you are present in or using stations... you are also subject to the Railway Byelaws."
    Originally posted by ceh209
    If you have a valid reason to be there without a ticket, so be it. It's probably best to explain why this is though, rather than simply refusing and looking like a railway hating Daily Mail reader...
    Last edited by Stigy; 13-09-2017 at 11:08 AM.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 13th Sep 17, 12:20 PM
    • 3,620 Posts
    • 1,833 Thanks
    KeithP
    The NRCoT is policy which forms no basis (in itself)...
    Originally posted by Stigy
    I would suggest to you that the NRCoT forms the basis of a contract between two parties.

    This is confirmed in the first sentence of that document:
    The National Rail Conditions of Travel define the ‘Agreement’ that comes into effect between you and the Train Companies that provide scheduled rail services on the National Rail Network, when you purchase a rail Ticket.
    On page 4 it also says:
    When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services on the National Rail Network you enter into a legal Agreement with each of the Train Companies whose trains your Ticket allows you to use. These Conditions set out the rights and obligations of passengers and Train Companies within this Agreement.
    and further down the same page:
    ...they are a legally binding Agreement between Train Companies and passengers...
    'no basis' eh?
    Last edited by KeithP; 13-09-2017 at 1:38 PM.
    .
    • Stigy
    • By Stigy 14th Sep 17, 9:53 AM
    • 1,523 Posts
    • 634 Thanks
    Stigy
    I would suggest to you that the NRCoT forms the basis of a contract between two parties.

    This is confirmed in the first sentence of that document:


    On page 4 it also says:

    and further down the same page:


    'no basis' eh?
    Originally posted by KeithP
    Apologies, maybe I wasn't clear.

    In terms of a criminal prosecution case (which a breach of Byelaw amounts to, as does a breach of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889), the NRCoT form no basis for the case. The NRCoT are legally binding but are civil, whereas somebody being reported for fare evasion is criminal legislation. Unfortunately, the NRCoT and the Byelaws act, don't always clearly work hand in hand. For example, the NRCoT state that if no facilities are available to buy a ticket, you should buy one at your earliest convenience or words to that effect. This isn't specific and the Byelaws don't mention it.

    If one was going to court using the NRCoT, they'd be using civil procedures and county courts, not criminal ones and Magistrates' Courts.
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