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  • FIRST POST
    • wevelop
    • By wevelop 5th Sep 17, 9:08 PM
    • 6Posts
    • 0Thanks
    wevelop
    (Re-written for clarity) Court Summons for no car tax but couldn't tax car?
    • #1
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:08 PM
    (Re-written for clarity) Court Summons for no car tax but couldn't tax car? 5th Sep 17 at 9:08 PM
    Hi,

    I am re-posting this question as I do not believe it was well received due the readability of it and lack of useful information. Hopefully this attempt on re-asking the question might be better suited to clarify my question and getting the feedback or answers that I would like.

    In short, my question is if I should I plead guilty or not guilty for the offence of being the registered keeper of an unlicensed vehicle for the period of March 2016 to March 2017. If I plead guilty, I may be liable to a 33% reduction of ‘any’ fine and do not have to attend a hearing. If I plead not guilty, I will have to attend a hearing in person and my best estimated guess is that if I am found guilty ‘any’ fines go up rather than down.
    The reason I did not tax nor SORN the car was that I was unable to do so since I did not have a logbook for it or a valid V5C number. I did not obtain my own logbook because up until this year as it seems I was not the registered keeper of the car. The best way I can clarity is give a timeline view below.

    August 2015
    I think I got this wrong in the original post, but after reviewing some documents I have clarified that I purchased the car at the beginning of August 2015. I bought the car from a ‘mutual’ friend on Facebook (someone I didn’t really personally know but had other social connections with). It was nothing out the ordinary car purchase, simply hand over money, complete documents, get V5C slip and drive off.

    The tax laws had already changed meaning that new owners where required to purchase their own taxes for new car purchases rather than carrying on using the previous owners tax until it expired. So, I purchased tax for the car immediately by using the number on the V5C slip. With the new DVLA online system I opted to paying my car tax monthly.

    November 2015
    At November time, I become concerned because I did not receive a confirmation from the DVLA of being the new owner of the car or a log book for it. I contacted the seller who assured me that he sent everything immediately. After knowing this and due to already paying for my tax, insurance and so on for ‘my’ car lawfully I assumed to just wait a little longer and that the documents were still being processed.

    January 2016
    I made a mistake in January that resulted in me looking to attend court for a ban in 16th February.

    February 2016
    On the 16th February, I was banned from driving for 15 months. Due to the length of this time, I decided it was best that I got rid of the car. My insurance was still valid for another month, and coincidentally my monthly tax date was taken on the 16th of every month, therefore meaning I had car tax valid until the 16th March. I couldn’t drive the car myself due to the ban but my dad was insured on the car too. The plan was for me to either sell the car or scrap it. I was unable to SORN the car at my house due to the area being residential parking only, therefore public road.

    I decided then to cancel the direct debit with my bank for the car tax. However, only after preparing what I needed to get rid of the car did I then realise I still had not received the logbook for the car. I contacted the DVLA and asked if I was the registered keeper of the car (in case the documents were sent out and I needed to request for new copies as I hadn’t received them) to which the reply was ‘no’. The woman who spoke to me from the DVLA instructed me that to get a logbook for the car I need to complete a V62 Form and send it along with the slip. After the conversation, I contacted the seller who was in total disbelief. At this point I would not be in my right mind to have any belief that the documents were indeed processing.

    Before I sent the V5C slip, I wanted to tax the car again or at the very least SORN it as I knew my tax run out on the 16th March and if I didn’t get the logbook in time I wouldn’t be able to do anything with the car. My company is a massive warehouse and land-space so after enquiring with my boss if I could store the car there since it’s private property, I could legally SORN it. After confirming this was okay I attempted to re-purchase tax for the car using the same V5C slip. However, this number now did not work for whatever reason. I am not sure if was because of duration of time or if the number is intended to be used only once. I was not able to tax the car or SORN it using the number on the V5C, meaning I now had no means to do anything with the car.

    March / April 2016
    The seller now gets in contact with me because the DVLA contacted him about having a car unlicensed. He was supposedly told a court date and claiming he had to pay ‘some fee’s’. I told him I had already sent my V5C as I wanted to get rid of the car, and asked again if he was sure he sent the documents immediately. Once more he promised so and then we left it there. I never heard from him again.

    January 2017
    After a long stretch of time I got a letter from the DVLA of my car being reported abandoned and that it was unlicensed. The key here being that now the DVLA recognised the car was mine. I wrote back to the DVLA as required from the letter explaining to them the whole situation. I still received nothing, but was now confused as something must have happened for the DVLA to recognise I was the owner of the car.

    March 2017
    The DVLA tolled and crushed the car. No reply from the DVLA regarding their enquiry nor any documents for the car.

    Now
    I received the court summons that I am enquiring about now. Reviewing the documents, the vehicles mainfile enquiry sheet shows that the period I did drive and tax the car I was not registered as a new keeper (or at least that’s what I think ‘New Keep’ means on the table). After sending the V5C, I am not sure of what other actions I could have taken to get ownership of the car and documents to get rid of it. I honestly have no idea how suddenly the car was registered.

    Soo the you have it, I hope I explained much as possible. Thank you for your time reading this and replies.

    Questions
    1) Based on my case, would it be better to plead guilty or not guilty?
    2) If guilty or not guilty, what sources of evidence and support factors should I add to my case?
Page 1
    • wgl2014
    • By wgl2014 5th Sep 17, 9:24 PM
    • 269 Posts
    • 145 Thanks
    wgl2014
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:24 PM
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:24 PM
    From what you have put you would appear to be guilty.
    Hindsight is wonderful but you really should have made more of an effort to get everything in order rather than letting it get to this point.
    One thing that's not clear is where did the DVLA seize the car from? Presumably not your employer's warehouse.
    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 5th Sep 17, 9:39 PM
    • 4,406 Posts
    • 3,775 Thanks
    BeenThroughItAll
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:39 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:39 PM
    You're guilty. Basically you just couldn't be bothered to properly follow up anything, and as a result you're left with a hefty fine. Basically a tax on laziness and/or stupidity.

    I'm sure you'll get very upset and defensive about this post, report it, and get it removed - but that won't change the truth, I'm afraid.
    • tom717
    • By tom717 5th Sep 17, 9:46 PM
    • 174 Posts
    • 89 Thanks
    tom717
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:46 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:46 PM
    So much of this makes no sense. Did you at any point receive a logbook?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 5th Sep 17, 10:13 PM
    • 15,054 Posts
    • 13,375 Thanks
    AdrianC
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:13 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:13 PM
    Link to previous thread - http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5705194
    • wevelop
    • By wevelop 5th Sep 17, 10:40 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    wevelop
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:40 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:40 PM
    So much of this makes no sense. Did you at any point receive a logbook?
    Originally posted by tom717
    No I didn't. At no point did i receive a logbook.
    • wevelop
    • By wevelop 5th Sep 17, 10:42 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    wevelop
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:42 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:42 PM
    You're guilty. Basically you just couldn't be bothered to properly follow up anything, and as a result you're left with a hefty fine. Basically a tax on laziness and/or stupidity.

    I'm sure you'll get very upset and defensive about this post, report it, and get it removed - but that won't change the truth, I'm afraid.
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    Is that what people do around here? Appreciate the honesty though.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 6th Sep 17, 12:04 AM
    • 813 Posts
    • 533 Thanks
    Manxman in exile
    • #8
    • 6th Sep 17, 12:04 AM
    • #8
    • 6th Sep 17, 12:04 AM
    I appreciate your attempt to clarify your other thread which made no sense at all. Thank you.
    • cjdavies
    • By cjdavies 6th Sep 17, 7:35 AM
    • 2,571 Posts
    • 2,520 Thanks
    cjdavies
    • #9
    • 6th Sep 17, 7:35 AM
    • #9
    • 6th Sep 17, 7:35 AM
    Hi,

    I am re-posting this question as I do not believe it was well received due the readability of it and lack of useful information. Hopefully this attempt on re-asking the question might be better suited to clarify my question and getting the feedback or answers that I would like.

    In short, my question is if I should I plead guilty or not guilty for the offence of being the registered keeper of an unlicensed vehicle for the period of March 2016 to March 2017. If I plead guilty, I may be liable to a 33% reduction of ‘any’ fine and do not have to attend a hearing. If I plead not guilty, I will have to attend a hearing in person and my best estimated guess is that if I am found guilty ‘any’ fines go up rather than down.
    The reason I did not tax nor SORN the car was that I was unable to do so since I did not have a logbook for it or a valid V5C number. I did not obtain my own logbook because up until this year as it seems I was not the registered keeper of the car. The best way I can clarity is give a timeline view below.

    August 2015
    I think I got this wrong in the original post, but after reviewing some documents I have clarified that I purchased the car at the beginning of August 2015. I bought the car from a ‘mutual’ friend on Facebook (someone I didn’t really personally know but had other social connections with). It was nothing out the ordinary car purchase, simply hand over money, complete documents, get V5C slip and drive off.

    The tax laws had already changed meaning that new owners where required to purchase their own taxes for new car purchases rather than carrying on using the previous owners tax until it expired. So, I purchased tax for the car immediately by using the number on the V5C slip. With the new DVLA online system I opted to paying my car tax monthly.

    November 2015
    At November time, I become concerned because I did not receive a confirmation from the DVLA of being the new owner of the car or a log book for it. I contacted the seller who assured me that he sent everything immediately. After knowing this and due to already paying for my tax, insurance and so on for ‘my’ car lawfully I assumed to just wait a little longer and that the documents were still being processed.

    January 2016
    I made a mistake in January that resulted in me looking to attend court for a ban in 16th February.

    February 2016
    On the 16th February, I was banned from driving for 15 months. Due to the length of this time, I decided it was best that I got rid of the car. My insurance was still valid for another month, and coincidentally my monthly tax date was taken on the 16th of every month, therefore meaning I had car tax valid until the 16th March. I couldn’t drive the car myself due to the ban but my dad was insured on the car too. The plan was for me to either sell the car or scrap it. I was unable to SORN the car at my house due to the area being residential parking only, therefore public road.

    I decided then to cancel the direct debit with my bank for the car tax. However, only after preparing what I needed to get rid of the car did I then realise I still had not received the logbook for the car. I contacted the DVLA and asked if I was the registered keeper of the car (in case the documents were sent out and I needed to request for new copies as I hadn’t received them) to which the reply was ‘no’. The woman who spoke to me from the DVLA instructed me that to get a logbook for the car I need to complete a V62 Form and send it along with the slip. After the conversation, I contacted the seller who was in total disbelief. At this point I would not be in my right mind to have any belief that the documents were indeed processing.

    Before I sent the V5C slip, I wanted to tax the car again or at the very least SORN it as I knew my tax run out on the 16th March and if I didn’t get the logbook in time I wouldn’t be able to do anything with the car. My company is a massive warehouse and land-space so after enquiring with my boss if I could store the car there since it’s private property, I could legally SORN it. After confirming this was okay I attempted to re-purchase tax for the car using the same V5C slip. However, this number now did not work for whatever reason. I am not sure if was because of duration of time or if the number is intended to be used only once. I was not able to tax the car or SORN it using the number on the V5C, meaning I now had no means to do anything with the car.

    March / April 2016
    The seller now gets in contact with me because the DVLA contacted him about having a car unlicensed. He was supposedly told a court date and claiming he had to pay ‘some fee’s’. I told him I had already sent my V5C as I wanted to get rid of the car, and asked again if he was sure he sent the documents immediately. Once more he promised so and then we left it there. I never heard from him again.

    January 2017
    After a long stretch of time I got a letter from the DVLA of my car being reported abandoned and that it was unlicensed. The key here being that now the DVLA recognised the car was mine. I wrote back to the DVLA as required from the letter explaining to them the whole situation. I still received nothing, but was now confused as something must have happened for the DVLA to recognise I was the owner of the car.

    March 2017
    The DVLA tolled and crushed the car. No reply from the DVLA regarding their enquiry nor any documents for the car.

    Now
    I received the court summons that I am enquiring about now. Reviewing the documents, the vehicles mainfile enquiry sheet shows that the period I did drive and tax the car I was not registered as a new keeper (or at least that’s what I think ‘New Keep’ means on the table). After sending the V5C, I am not sure of what other actions I could have taken to get ownership of the car and documents to get rid of it. I honestly have no idea how suddenly the car was registered.

    Soo the you have it, I hope I explained much as possible. Thank you for your time reading this and replies.

    Questions
    1) Based on my case, would it be better to plead guilty or not guilty?
    2) If guilty or not guilty, what sources of evidence and support factors should I add to my case?
    Originally posted by wevelop

    Imo based on above best plead guilty.
    • angrycrow
    • By angrycrow 6th Sep 17, 8:43 AM
    • 358 Posts
    • 269 Thanks
    angrycrow
    A lot of people seem to think that cancelling their money direct debit is sufficient to cancel the tax on a car. You still need to tell dvla you have either disposed of the car or sorn it and remove it from the public roads.

    OP did neither so is guilty of failing to tax the car it sorn it hence the court case. Plead guilty and cut your losses.
    • deaston
    • By deaston 6th Sep 17, 8:46 AM
    • 452 Posts
    • 235 Thanks
    deaston
    Hi,

    I am re-posting this question as I do not believe it was well received due the readability of it and lack of useful information. Hopefully this attempt on re-asking the question might be better suited to clarify my question and getting the feedback or answers that I would like.
    Originally posted by wevelop
    I haven't read your post, but from my experience of this forum, it's not the place to get useful advice. The mods don't keep on top of things (I don't even know if there are mods) and so it's mainly a small group of rather bitter users who take a lot of pleasure in belittling people's posts.

    I haven't read your original post or the repies, but I suspect the other forum members got bogged-down in some minor detail, accused you of lying, made out you were the bad guy etc. etc. rather than answering your query.

    I would recommend posting this on another forum where you might get more sympathetic and balanced replies.
    Last edited by deaston; 06-09-2017 at 8:48 AM.
    • paddyandstumpy
    • By paddyandstumpy 6th Sep 17, 8:47 AM
    • 784 Posts
    • 323 Thanks
    paddyandstumpy
    I haven't read your post, but from my experience of this forum, it's not the place to get useful advice. The mods don't keep on top of things (I don't even know if there are mods) and so it's mainly a small group of rather bitter users who take a lot of pleasure in belittling people's posts.

    I would recommend posting this on another forum where you might get more sympathetic and balanced replies.
    Originally posted by deaston
    Like mumsnet.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Sep 17, 8:52 AM
    • 15,054 Posts
    • 13,375 Thanks
    AdrianC
    I haven't read your original post
    Originally posted by deaston
    It's always a good start, before deciding on the accuracy of replies.
    • BeenThroughItAll
    • By BeenThroughItAll 6th Sep 17, 9:05 AM
    • 4,406 Posts
    • 3,775 Thanks
    BeenThroughItAll
    I haven't read your post, but from my experience of this forum, it's not the place to get useful advice. The mods don't keep on top of things (I don't even know if there are mods) and so it's mainly a small group of rather bitter users who take a lot of pleasure in belittling people's posts.

    I haven't read your original post or the repies, but I suspect the other forum members got bogged-down in some minor detail, accused you of lying, made out you were the bad guy etc. etc. rather than answering your query.

    I would recommend posting this on another forum where you might get more sympathetic and balanced replies.
    Originally posted by deaston


    This based on your own treatment, assumedly, because of the post where you tried to make out that it was nothing to do with your driving that you ended up stuck in a hole on someone's driveway? Or is it the more recent attempt at social vigilantism because you were overtaken by someone who subsequently had an accident of indeterminate cause (which you decided was because of their speeding despite not seeing it happen) which you ignored and drove past, chuckling to yourself about the opportunity to 'grass them up' to the authorities?
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Sep 17, 9:09 AM
    • 15,054 Posts
    • 13,375 Thanks
    AdrianC
    This based on your own treatment, assumedly, because of the post where you tried to make out that it was nothing to do with your driving that you ended up stuck in a hole on someone's driveway? Or is it the more recent attempt at social vigilantism because you were overtaken by someone who subsequently had an accident of indeterminate cause (which you decided was because of their speeding despite not seeing it happen) which you ignored and drove past, chuckling to yourself about the opportunity to 'grass them up' to the authorities?
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    Oh, it's him.
    • deaston
    • By deaston 6th Sep 17, 9:10 AM
    • 452 Posts
    • 235 Thanks
    deaston
    Like mumsnet.
    Originally posted by paddyandstumpy
    It's always a good start, before deciding on the accuracy of replies.
    Originally posted by AdrianC
    This based on your own treatment, assumedly, because of the post where you tried to make out that it was nothing to do with your driving that you ended up stuck in a hole on someone's driveway? Or is it the more recent attempt at social vigilantism because you were overtaken by someone who subsequently had an accident of indeterminate cause (which you decided was because of their speeding despite not seeing it happen) which you ignored and drove past, chuckling to yourself about the opportunity to 'grass them up' to the authorities?
    Originally posted by BeenThroughItAll
    And so the wolves start circling... (kindly proving my point)
    • takman
    • By takman 6th Sep 17, 9:11 AM
    • 2,615 Posts
    • 2,172 Thanks
    takman
    November 2015
    At November time, I become concerned because I did not receive a confirmation from the DVLA of being the new owner of the car or a log book for it. I contacted the seller who assured me that he sent everything immediately. After knowing this and due to already paying for my tax, insurance and so on for ‘my’ car lawfully I assumed to just wait a little longer and that the documents were still being processed.
    Originally posted by wevelop
    I think this is where you made the first crucial mistake. You should have rang the DVLA and asked them if they had received the documents and if it's being processed.

    You can't really do anything but plead guilty considering that if you were more organised with your paperwork this wouldn't have happened.
    • AdrianC
    • By AdrianC 6th Sep 17, 9:16 AM
    • 15,054 Posts
    • 13,375 Thanks
    AdrianC
    And so the wolves start circling... (kindly proving my point)
    Originally posted by deaston
    So, instead of your (hypocritical) criticism of other posters for criticising other posters, how about you DO read the original post, and make constructive suggestions about how the OP should extract himself from this situation?
    • takman
    • By takman 6th Sep 17, 9:18 AM
    • 2,615 Posts
    • 2,172 Thanks
    takman
    I haven't read your post, but from my experience of this forum, it's not the place to get useful advice. The mods don't keep on top of things (I don't even know if there are mods) and so it's mainly a small group of rather bitter users who take a lot of pleasure in belittling people's posts.

    I haven't read your original post or the repies, but I suspect the other forum members got bogged-down in some minor detail, accused you of lying, made out you were the bad guy etc. etc. rather than answering your query.

    I would recommend posting this on another forum where you might get more sympathetic and balanced replies.
    Originally posted by deaston
    I think your the one who needs to join another forum if you think the moderators on here are too slack!. The moderators are constantly removing posts due to over sensitive posters getting offended.

    Why would anyone want sympathetic replies to this kind of situation?. If I posted a question and got s series of replies from people who expressed their sympathy for my situation I wouldn't find that helpful at all.

    The least helpful person in this thread is you because you couldn't even be bothered to read the OP. Why not post in another part of the forum in your own thread instead of jumping on someone else's who has taken the time to write out their situation in detail.
    • deaston
    • By deaston 6th Sep 17, 9:21 AM
    • 452 Posts
    • 235 Thanks
    deaston
    The moderators are constantly removing posts due to over sensitive posters getting offended.
    Originally posted by takman
    I would say the problem is the offensive posts rather than the 'over-sensitive' member. This forum is full of small-minded bullies (like AdrianC and Aylesbury Duck) which don't create the helpful, inclusive forum this could be.
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