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  • FIRST POST
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 5th Sep 17, 11:01 AM
    • 15Posts
    • 12Thanks
    TwoPence
    IPC Appeal Dilemma
    • #1
    • 5th Sep 17, 11:01 AM
    IPC Appeal Dilemma 5th Sep 17 at 11:01 AM
    Hi,

    I received a PCN from a private parking company (IPC member) a number of months ago. At present, I believe there are two potential reasons for appeal available, hence I decided to create this thread in the hope to gain some advice as to which option provides the strongest appeal, if any at all.

    Unfortunatly, as suggested by the ‘Newbies! Need help with a private parking ticket? Read this before posting!!’ thread, I have already eliminated the option to appeal as the ‘Registered Keeper’ as my wording in the initial appeal suggests I am in fact the driver. Regrettably, I had not discovered the thread at the time of my initial appeal.

    PCN Details
    The reason that the PPC issued the PCN is the following:
    ‘Not parked correctly within the markings of the bay or space’
    In an attempt to keep this thread relatively short, the circumstances of my case are virtually identical to the following case:
    ht tp://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5629259

    It is worth mentioning that I submitted my appeal within 21 days following the PCN as requested (via Royal Mail Signed For), although the PCN rejected my appeal 148 days later. This is significant as the IPC Code of Practice Section 6.1 (d) states that the PPC must:
    Consider such representations and should respond appropriately within 28 days.
    Proposed Action
    1. Continue to uphold my initial argument regarding ambiguous signage and inconsistent ‘no parking zone’ markings.
    2. Argue that the PPC did not comply with the KADOE contract as it did not seek recovery in accordance with the ATA’s Code of Practice (to reply within 28 days).

    Information regarding the KADOE was extracted from:
    ht tp://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585388

    If there is any important information in relation to the case not included in this post, please don’t hesitate to request further information.

    I would be grateful of any advice.

    Thanks in advance!
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Sep 17, 11:25 AM
    • 15,517 Posts
    • 24,237 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 17, 11:25 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 17, 11:25 AM
    Fewer than 20% of appeals are upheld by the IAS. It is reported that they promised their membership that they would reject at least 80% of all appeals. That's a fair testimony as to a) their independence, and b) your prospects of success.

    We've only seen appeals won where there is absolute and irrefutable evidence like they saying you were in car park X when you have flight tickets showing you were mid-Atlantic on your way to Florida.

    Turning to your case, if you can irrefutably prove the PPC to be wrong, then you might have half a chance with an appeal, but you will need physical evidence to (more than) prove your case.

    In relation to the delay in responding to your appeal, I rather suspect (but can't guarantee) that the IAS drone will regard it as trivial.

    But David Dunford of the DVLA (who are the guardians of the KADOE contract) should be interested and shouldn't regard it as trivial, so, whatever you do in regard to appealing to the IAS, you should definitely complain to him that no one should be kept waiting almost 5 months for the outcome of an appeal, especially when they (the PPC) have signed a legally binding contract with him (DVLA) to abide fully by the IPC's Code of Practice. Personally, I think this may give you a better chance of having the charge kicked into the long grass than any IAS appeal.

    Which PPC are you dealing with here?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 5th Sep 17, 12:46 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:46 PM
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:46 PM
    Thanks greatly for your response Umkomaas.

    It is disappointing to hear so few appeals are upheld by the IAS, although I can't say I am shocked having read extensively about the IAS.

    The PPC is Euro Parking Services Ltd, not to be confused with Euro Car Parks Ltd or similar.

    I have obtained photographic evidence of the site at the location where my PCN was issued. I could provide this here for review so long as it does not prove detrimental to my case or contravene forum rules?

    It appears that in the case of the thread listed in my first post, an appeal to the IAS was rejected (no surprise there).

    There are possible complications in regards to the delayed response to my appeal. My most recent correspondence brings attention to my initial appeal, but does not contain the specifics of my appeal. They seem to have taken the most recent correspondence as my initial appeal and responded accordingly.

    The appeals process itself has been handled extremely poorly. The PPC has sent a 'Notice to keeper' and LBCCC with no acknowledgement of my initial appeal, yet their most recent correspondence is a rejection of my appeal.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Sep 17, 1:08 PM
    • 851 Posts
    • 970 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 17, 1:08 PM
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 17, 1:08 PM
    We are totally shocked that this scum bag company of parasites hasn't managed a proper appeals process. Completely baffled.

    If you're at lbc stage, just respond to that, showing us your draft.
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 5th Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:13 PM
    Indeed nosferatu1001, it is simply unacceptable.

    Unfortunately, I am unsure as to which stage of the appeal I am currently at. Having received a LBC letter, one would assume that the PPC is seeking to commence legal proceedings. However, their most recent correspondence is in relation to my initial appeal.

    Is this the first case ever to receive a LBCCC before a decision on the initial appeal I wonder?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 5th Sep 17, 4:30 PM
    • 15,517 Posts
    • 24,237 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:30 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:30 PM
    Respond robustly to the LBCCC and copy everything to David Dunford and ask that he investigate urgently as this now looks to you that a court case could be imminent, even though the PPC has not followed due process with the appeals procedure.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Sep 17, 5:47 PM
    • 851 Posts
    • 970 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 5:47 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 5:47 PM
    You of course respond to the lbc. As that's the last stage before court action. You of course highlight the confusion, as at worst case they're behaving unreasonably

    You missed my sarcasm as well. No one is shocked.
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 5th Sep 17, 6:18 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 17, 6:18 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 17, 6:18 PM
    Thanks both for your advice, I will draft a response to the LBCCC with the aid of the FAQ thread and post it here.

    It does indeed seem I missed your sarcasm nosferatu1001, my apologies .
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 6th Sep 17, 3:11 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    • #9
    • 6th Sep 17, 3:11 PM
    • #9
    • 6th Sep 17, 3:11 PM
    Here is the draft response to the LBCCC:

    ===========================================
    Draft letter temporarily withdrawn
    ===========================================
    Any feedback welcome. Also, if you can suggest any further points in law (e.g. CPR Part 3.4) to include on the response, I would be grateful of your advice.

    Thanks to:
    Timothea
    ht tp://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5585388
    and
    Coupon-mad
    ht tp://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5673397#post72786361
    Last edited by TwoPence; 12-09-2017 at 3:10 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 17, 12:57 AM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,136 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Any feedback welcome. Also, if you can suggest any further points in law (e.g. CPR Part 3.4) to include on the response, I would be grateful of your advice.
    I'd say the end needs to be clearer about what you mean by 'overturn this matter'? Say exactly what you want them to do, and when you expect them to respond by (e.g. you could say: 'within 14 days of the date of this letter').
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 7th Sep 17, 5:09 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    Thanks Coupon-mad,

    I have amended this by requesting them to cease and desist from processing my personal data and when to respond by.

    I'll keep the thread updated. I'm likely to temporarily remove my LBCCC response until the PPC has provided a response, if they do at all respond, so to avoid the possibility of any further complications.
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 27th Sep 17, 9:38 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    Just to update, still no success in appealing for the PPC to drop the PCN.

    I am repeatedly receiving 'copy & paste' letters in response, which fail to address many of the points raised in my appeal and subsequent letters. I'm sure this won't come as a shock to anyone here.

    The letter fails to acknowledge my section 10 data subject notice and makes reference to an attached document regarding my initial appeal, of which it seems they have forgotten to attach the letter.

    They seem to be trying to avoid the points raised by myself regarding the DPA and their non-compliance of the IPC Code of Practice. Perhaps this suggests they are struggling to defend it?

    My next step would be to inform them that I deem their response as a refusal to comply with both the Code of Contract and DPA, and that the circumstances of the case will be forwarded to the relevant governing bodies (being the ICO for DPA and DVLA for a KADOE breach).

    If anyone could advise whether this is the appropriate action to be taken, I would be grateful once again of any feedback.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Sep 17, 12:28 AM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,136 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes, do that!

    But also ask for that missing letter because that pretty much stops them being able to issue a claim (probably) if you've reasonably asked for signage photos or other documents not yet supplied.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Sep 17, 7:46 AM
    • 15,517 Posts
    • 24,237 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Have you complained to David Dunford? What was his response?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 28th Sep 17, 8:51 AM
    • 7,379 Posts
    • 6,423 Thanks
    The Deep
    Were they to take this to court they might struggle. Judges are not fools, most of them are aware of what these companies are up to, and are likely to see a tyre of a few inches over a line as a very minor matter, certainly not one for which they deserve £100 compensation.

    The PPC would be daft to reference Beavis, and, depending on the encroachment, would have a hard job convincing a judge that this was not a penalty,

    My advice is ignore them, (but make as much trouble as you can for them), and if they did take you to court you have more than an even charge, imo, of beating them.
    Last edited by The Deep; 28-09-2017 at 8:54 AM.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 28th Sep 17, 11:46 AM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    Thanks for your reply,

    I would certainly agree with your points, although I would add that my case is regarding a disagreement over what constitutes a ‘marked bay’ to a reasonable person.

    I have now informed them that I will be proceeding with alternative action. As you have pointed out, should they provide an unsatisfactory response as they have done continuously, I would be wasting my time to keep sending letters back and forth.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Sep 17, 4:45 PM
    • 15,517 Posts
    • 24,237 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    What has David Dunford said?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • TwoPence
    • By TwoPence 28th Sep 17, 7:49 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    TwoPence
    Have you complained to David Dunford? What was his response?
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Apologies, it seems I missed your initial question regarding the complaint to David Dunford. Unfortunatly I did not contact David Dunford at the time of your advice. I could not find a strong enough source to identify his direct email and I was hopeful that the points I made in law would force the PPC to reconsider.

    I will make a complaint to the DVLA, although this won't insure that it is dealt with by David Dunford. Ultimately, I don't think it is detrimental that I have not contacted the DVLA sooner as recent events have strengthened my case further.

    I'll update with the DVLA's response, unless it is absolutely mandatory that I deal with David Dunford directly and can be provided with his contact information.

    Edit
    Apologies, I missed out some messages as I responded from a mobile device.

    Yes, do that!
    But also ask for that missing letter because that pretty much stops them being able to issue a claim (probably) if you've reasonably asked for signage photos or other documents not yet supplied.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Certainly, I have highlighted that they did not attach any further documents in their latest correspondence.
    Last edited by TwoPence; 28-09-2017 at 7:58 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Sep 17, 8:27 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,136 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I could not find a strong enough source to identify his direct email
    I've personally emailed him dozens of times, and he answers.

    I will make a complaint to the DVLA, although this won't insure that it is dealt with by David Dunford.
    Yes it will, if you email him like we all do. Mandatory? no. Sensible when complaining, because he listens, yes.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 28-09-2017 at 11:31 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 28th Sep 17, 8:27 PM
    • 4,483 Posts
    • 2,804 Thanks
    KeithP
    Using the forum search with 'David Dunford' will reveal this post (and many others) with his email address.
    .
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