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  • FIRST POST
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 10:11 AM
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    lisyloo
    Visa chargeback scheme
    • #1
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:11 AM
    Visa chargeback scheme 5th Sep 17 at 10:11 AM
    Hello,


    I had to give up a "comfort" seat that I'd paid for on a flight when we were moved to a smaller aircraft.
    I have a hand-written offer of compensation plus full refund.
    I'm not getting any joy with EasyJet.
    I've taken this up with my bank as I paid via visa debit card.


    I am expecting them to be able to deal with the refund issue as we simply didn't get what we paid for.


    Does anyone know whether they'll deal with compensation if I have the offer in writing.
    I'm asking as it will affect the way I proceed.


    I have already sent 3 online complaints (1 of which I have chat transcript to show it was received) and 1 letter (signed for), but no response so far.


    Thankyou
    Last edited by lisyloo; 05-09-2017 at 10:16 AM.
Page 2
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 5th Sep 17, 1:23 PM
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    KeithP
    I started the new thread to rephrase the question because unfortunately if you give some details then people go off on all sorts of tangeants asking about this and that when really I just had a question about the VISA chargeback scheme.
    Apologies if that caused you issues.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    Have you read MSE's chargeback article yet?

    But as you might imagine, the word chargeback implies the return of monies paid.

    So, no, the chargeback scheme does not cover extra compensation.
    For that you need section 75 of the consumer credit act.
    Did you use a debit card or a credit card?
    Last edited by KeithP; 05-09-2017 at 1:26 PM.
    .
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 1:23 PM
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    lisyloo
    I am really struggling to understand why you haven't asked your card issuer that question.

    I have done this Keith.
    I am currently awaiting their response.


    As far as I understand it a chargeback is totally appropriate for services not received (refund) but not for the compensation element.
    That information does help me because it means I may also need to pursue the moneyclaim route as well and now I know that today I can proceed with that (letter recorded delivery) NOW rather than wait for the outcome of the chargeback claim.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 1:26 PM
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    lisyloo
    But this is a consumer rights board. I don't know why you would expect moral sympathy on here, and the fact you say you didn't come looking for it, then I can't see why you have raised the issue as you haven't got any.
    It's generally a friendly, helpful community, so a little surprised, but
    yes you're right I shouldn't have mentioned it as every irrelevant detail take someone off on a tangeant which in this case is my fault. Lesson learned !!


    Chargeback will be for £102.48
    Thank you for clarifying.
    It helps as I now know I have to pursue the rest through a different route and I can get on with that TODAY and speed things up as much as possible.
    I would suggest the small claims court or moneyclaim online are better value than going to see a solicitor in person (if I understood your advice correctly, if not I apologise in advance).
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 5th Sep 17, 2:23 PM
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    agrinnall
    It's not clear, because as far as I can see you haven't said it anywhere, exactly what Easyjet's response has been to your request for payment of the amount that was authorised. Have they responded at all, and if so what have they offered? Or have they simply declined to respond at all?

    It's certainly worth trying for the refund through Chargeback, and I think you should be successful, but Easyjet may contest it and your bank may go along with them, so it might be best to delay starting your Small Claim until you know whether it'll just be for the compensation amount or if it'll also need to include the cost of the refund.
    • HogMan
    • By HogMan 5th Sep 17, 2:34 PM
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    HogMan
    You may find that Easyjet’s t&cs limit you to a refund and override any hand written papers you may have been given.

    14.5.5 We reserve the right to amend your seat selection for operational or safety reasons. Should We need to amend Your seat selection, but are unable to honour that seat selection by providing a seat in the same or higher Band that You have purchased, then You will be entitled to a refund of the Allocated Seating Charges.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 3:06 PM
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    lisyloo
    It's not clear, because as far as I can see you haven't said it anywhere, exactly what Easyjet's response has been to your request for payment of the amount that was authorised. Have they responded at all, and if so what have they offered? Or have they simply declined to respond at all?

    It's certainly worth trying for the refund through Chargeback, and I think you should be successful, but Easyjet may contest it and your bank may go along with them, so it might be best to delay starting your Small Claim until you know whether it'll just be for the compensation amount or if it'll also need to include the cost of the refund.
    Apologies - no response from EasyJet so far.
    I'd be surprised if they appealed within the time limit simply on the basis of organisation, but not sure why you'd suggest they'd win in a straightforward case of services not received. Why do you think they might?
    My personal experience so far is that companies do not prioritise appealing relatively small amounts. Companies are pragmatic and not emotional.


    I am not starting a claim yet and I agree completely that it's best to exhaust the free routes first.
    However I am sending the "Letter before action" because that starts the clock ticking as to when I can actually start the action.
    They have to be given time to respond and to maximise my chances of success I want to be seen to have given them every chance (this will be 2 letter and 3 on-line communications).
    Last edited by lisyloo; 05-09-2017 at 3:12 PM.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 3:11 PM
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    • 10,136 Thanks
    lisyloo
    You may find that Easyjet’s t&cs limit you to a refund and override any hand written papers you may have been given.

    14.5.5 We reserve the right to amend your seat selection for operational or safety reasons. Should We need to amend Your seat selection, but are unable to honour that seat selection by providing a seat in the same or higher Band that You have purchased, then You will be entitled to a refund of the Allocated Seating Charges.
    Originally posted by HogMan

    That clearly states I'm entitled to a refund, but I don't see anything that limits offering additional compensation payments or null and voids offers made in writing.


    But hey, if I lose I lose - it's not life and death.
    I do think they should honour a written offer and I do think I stand a good chance with a claim.


    The point of this thread was should I start the clock ticking on the moneyclaim route and the answer is yes, so letter going off today (recorded).
    Last edited by lisyloo; 05-09-2017 at 3:15 PM.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 3:48 PM
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    lisyloo
    You've brought up an interesting point.


    I paid for the flights initially with a debit card.
    At a later date I paid for an extra bag with an Amex card that I have since closed (under the same booking reference).


    I know that £1 gives you section 75 protection for the whole lot and I don't believe the card closure affects the protection, but is it a separate transaction?


    On this one I will call AMEX, but if anyone happens to know the answer then that would be great.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 05-09-2017 at 3:55 PM.
    • glentoran99
    • By glentoran99 5th Sep 17, 3:57 PM
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    glentoran99
    yes its a separate tranasaction
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 4:03 PM
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    lisyloo
    Thankyou very much.
    The baggage was unaffected so no section 75 claim.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 5th Sep 17, 4:11 PM
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    DoaM
    Make sure the LBA mentions that the chargeback amount will be added to the claim should Easyjet contest it and prevent the chargeback from proceeding.
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    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 5th Sep 17, 4:15 PM
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    unholyangel
    It's generally a friendly, helpful community, so a little surprised, but
    yes you're right I shouldn't have mentioned it as every irrelevant detail take someone off on a tangeant which in this case is my fault. Lesson learned !!

    Thank you for clarifying.
    It helps as I now know I have to pursue the rest through a different route and I can get on with that TODAY and speed things up as much as possible.
    I would suggest the small claims court or moneyclaim online are better value than going to see a solicitor in person (if I understood your advice correctly, if not I apologise in advance).
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    To be fair, you've asked your question on the consumer rights board, not the "how does chargeback work" board. We're likely to view & respond to posts more along the lines of consumer rights.

    Plus at least some posters will be aware that a chargeback is basically nothing more than your bank asking their bank "can our customer have their money back please", so if easyjet have given you a reason for declining, it may offer some insight into how they will respond to the chargeback request.

    As for the MCOL/solicitor part...sometimes its worthwhile getting just an initial consultation to find out if your case has reasonable prospect of success (some solicitors still offer these for free so not necessarily any cost involved). In comparison, small claims is okay if they pay up upon receiving a summons. If not then you're looking at filing fee, hearing fee, costs of travelling to/from court, cost of taking time off to attend court, time spent preparing the case etc as well as potentially being liable for their limited costs if you lose. In small claims, costs are usually awarded on the standard basis and are fixed/limited. Meaning even when people have costs awarded, it doesn't fully compensate them. It may even be prudent to forego the chargeback and include the refund in your claim - because even if the compensation element is denied, you should still win and therefore have a better chance of being awarded costs and not having them awarded against you.

    Of course every case needs to be judged on its own merit. Personally I wouldn't pay out given the amount in question. But I would definitely look into getting some free advice of some sort as the claim for the compensation will likely hinge on whether the change of aircraft was due to events outwith their control or not.

    Easyjet is one of the worst airlines for space btw. Most scheduled airlines give 32" legroom, most charters give 31" but easyjet give 29". But I'd consider flying with one of the roomier ones in future - buying an extra seat is great when the plane isn't full but airlines tend to oversell (especially the budget ones whose appeal is in price rather than comfort) and they'll usually always opt for carrying the passenger and refunding your extra seat rather than telling the other person they can't fly.
    Last edited by unholyangel; 05-09-2017 at 4:18 PM.
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 4:20 PM
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    lisyloo
    Make sure the LBA mentions that the chargeback amount will be added to the claim should Easyjet contest it and prevent the chargeback from proceeding.
    Originally posted by DoaM

    It's a good point.
    I am not sure how that works in practice.
    I believe the retailer has 45 days to appeal, so apart from waiting for the 45 days to elapse I'm not sure how I prevent that.


    Does anyone know how the timescales work on moneyclaim?
    i.e. can I start a claim for the total and later reduce it?
    or is it completely static and I have to wait for the 45 days to elapse if I want to play it safe?
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 5th Sep 17, 4:31 PM
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    lisyloo
    If not then you're looking at filing fee, hearing fee, costs of travelling to/from court, cost of taking time off to attend court, time spent preparing the case etc as well as potentially being liable for their limited costs if you lose.
    Thankyou for the warnings.
    I understand moneyclaim online is £35.
    I live in London so getting the bus anywhere is £1.50
    My boss is pretty flexible so I won't take time off just move my hours. I've pretty much already prepared the case for the chargeback.
    I was under the impression that costs weren't awarded in the small claims court or were very limited.
    I understand there are some costs and time involved.


    as the claim for the compensation will likely hinge on whether the change of aircraft was due to events outwith their control or not.
    So if they've voluntarily made a written offer agreed by the likes of the captain and in a recorded phone conversation they can just change their mind and withdraw it?
    I would have thought it was binding unless there as a reason why not e.g. under duress.


    buying an extra seat is great when the plane isn't full
    The first plane wasn't full initially.
    It's just very unlucky (or lucky depending on your POV) that we had to move 180 passengers from a plane with 186 seats to another plane with exactly 180 seats although one with a working engine was the better choice :-)


    We don't have an issue with the change, it was the sensible thing to do and it would be outrageous to take someone off and leave a spare seat. I just want them to do what they offered - that's all. It was the sensible thing to offer compensation for my discomfort so that someone else could fly. I did consider getting the other lady (who was very slim and at a rough estimate 2 dress sizes smaller than me) to sit in the middle seat, but it didn't seem right.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 05-09-2017 at 4:55 PM.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 5th Sep 17, 7:52 PM
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    agrinnall
    I'd be surprised if they appealed within the time limit simply on the basis of organisation, but not sure why you'd suggest they'd win in a straightforward case of services not received. Why do you think they might?
    My personal experience so far is that companies do not prioritise appealing relatively small amounts. Companies are pragmatic and not emotional.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    Your second paragraph would be correct in many industries, but airlines have fought tooth and nail to get out of paying what legislation says they should, and even after court defeats many of them make it very difficult for consumers to exercise their rights (I had to use a solicitor to get my statutory delayed arrival payment from Aer Lingus). So I wouldn't be at all surprised to find them disputing any pay out.
    • agrinnall
    • By agrinnall 5th Sep 17, 8:16 PM
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    agrinnall
    You've been told the answer on the other thread, someone of your experience should understand how much it will annoy people if you start a new thread to try to get a different answer. You are damaging your long built reputation by the way you are behaving.
    • unholyangel
    • By unholyangel 5th Sep 17, 8:56 PM
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    unholyangel
    Thankyou for the warnings.
    I understand moneyclaim online is £35.
    I live in London so getting the bus anywhere is £1.50
    My boss is pretty flexible so I won't take time off just move my hours. I've pretty much already prepared the case for the chargeback.
    I was under the impression that costs weren't awarded in the small claims court or were very limited.
    I understand there are some costs and time involved.
    Originally posted by lisyloo
    Yes costs are limited in small claims - sorry I did try to convey that by stating costs awarded on the standard basis don't fully compensate you (as oppose to on an indemnity basis which would compensate you more if not completely).

    Yes the filing fee using MCOL is £35 for claims between £300 and £500. The hearing fee for claims of the same value (£300-£500) would be £55. If they didn't pay up (unlikely imo but sometimes they surprise you), you'd then potentially have enforcement fees on top.


    So if they've voluntarily made a written offer agreed by the likes of the captain and in a recorded phone conversation they can just change their mind and withdraw it?
    I would have thought it was binding unless there as a reason why not e.g. under duress.
    Not every employee has the authority to act as an agent for their employer and enter them into legally binding agreements (although if they do have that authority, the company can't pick and choose which bits they want to be bound to). Different if perhaps you were told at the time of booking, they'd give you a refund & compensation as that may have helped form the basis on which you made your decision to enter the contract.


    The first plane wasn't full initially.
    It's just very unlucky (or lucky depending on your POV) that we had to move 180 passengers from a plane with 186 seats to another plane with exactly 180 seats although one with a working engine was the better choice :-)


    We don't have an issue with the change, it was the sensible thing to do and it would be outrageous to take someone off and leave a spare seat. I just want them to do what they offered - that's all. It was the sensible thing to offer compensation for my discomfort so that someone else could fly. I did consider getting the other lady (who was very slim and at a rough estimate 2 dress sizes smaller than me) to sit in the middle seat, but it didn't seem right.
    Again, sorry - I didn't mean that your original plane was full. Just stating that not getting the extra seat you paid for is a very real risk even under normal circumstances (ie with no change of aircraft) due to airline practices (I dont agree with overselling - I can't see how it fits in law for them to sell something they've already sold and therefore no longer have to sell).
    Money doesn't solve poverty.....it creates it.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 6th Sep 17, 7:56 AM
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    lisyloo
    Yes the filing fee using MCOL is £35 for claims between £300 and £500. The hearing fee for claims of the same value (£300-£500) would be £55. If they didn't pay up (unlikely imo but sometimes they surprise you), you'd then potentially have enforcement fees on top.
    Thankyou. Presumably I can stop at any time. For example if I wanted to only spend £35 and think it's worthwhile I can do that. I'm not forced to pay the other fees. I was hoping it wouldn't get further than that although it's a all good points to know.

    I believe a captain is someone with authority in this situation and the phone call was made to airports liaison officer and that is exactly the kind of scenario the airports liason officer is authorised to do. so in this case I believe it's been properly authorised.

    It's never happened to us before and only on this occasion becuas there was a change of aircraft.
    we can travel for a couple of hours in discomfort but for those who can't e.g. Guitar, them they'd need to change to another plane.
    Thanks for noting the risk, but it doesn't change the fact that obelise, disabled or musical instruments don't really have any alternative.
    Last edited by lisyloo; 06-09-2017 at 9:42 AM.
    • lisyloo
    • By lisyloo 6th Sep 17, 8:00 AM
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    lisyloo
    Be helpful old chap and tell me how to delete it.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 6th Sep 17, 8:32 AM
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    DoaM
    PM a board guide and ask them to lock this thread? Or to merge the replies with your other thread?
    Diary of a madman
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