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  • FIRST POST
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 4th Sep 17, 11:29 PM
    • 13Posts
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    iNeedHoney
    Can I Get My Money?
    • #1
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:29 PM
    Can I Get My Money? 4th Sep 17 at 11:29 PM
    Hey there guys new here, basically I started doing door supervisor work for an agency long story short the agency was very unprofessional things such as being called last minute and expected to travel across London and not being compensated, having to chase up with the owner for my pay every time etc

    I am new to door work so this guy obviously took the biscuit a bit and I knew of this but being new I thought let me rack up some experience, but few weeks ago I spoke with more door men and they directed me to better places the problem however is I'm owed £198, the owner is not picking up his phone or answering any of my texts, it's been 2 weeks since I was meant to be paid but since I told him I'm not working anymore he has lost contact with me...we didn't really finish on bad terms I didn't explain anything to him as I'm self employed and he never gave me a fixed rota so the time I left it wasn't as if I cancelled so many shifts and left him in a pickle

    so the main problem is I didn't sign any contract, it was pretty much all word of mouth, the only "proof" I have is text messages and also the sheets we sign in a beginning of a shift which I believe are for the council however I don't have access to that it's something he controls usually, so is there anything I can do to get my money?

    Thank you!
Page 1
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Sep 17, 12:17 AM
    • 15,128 Posts
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    Guest101
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:17 AM
    • #2
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:17 AM
    Small claims court?

    You may be self employed, but it seems more likely you were actually employed. Most likely zero hours.
    • TBagpuss
    • By TBagpuss 5th Sep 17, 10:34 AM
    • 6,033 Posts
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    TBagpuss
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:34 AM
    • #3
    • 5th Sep 17, 10:34 AM
    You say he is not answering phone calls or texts - I'd suggest that you write (paper, ink, stamp) set out the dates and hours your worked, the rates agreed and the total !!! owing.

    ask him to ensure that that payment is made without delay as it is 2 weeks overdue. Keep a copy of both the letter and proof of positing.

    Follow up with a small claims court claim if you get no response.
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 5th Sep 17, 11:16 AM
    • 13 Posts
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    iNeedHoney
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 17, 11:16 AM
    • #4
    • 5th Sep 17, 11:16 AM
    You say he is not answering phone calls or texts - I'd suggest that you write (paper, ink, stamp) set out the dates and hours your worked, the rates agreed and the total !!! owing.

    ask him to ensure that that payment is made without delay as it is 2 weeks overdue. Keep a copy of both the letter and proof of positing.

    Follow up with a small claims court claim if you get no response.
    Originally posted by TBagpuss
    Small claims court?

    You may be self employed, but it seems more likely you were actually employed. Most likely zero hours.
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Thank you so much for the replies, the thing is I have literally zero proof and it sounds like I was employed but no contract nothing it was literally he phones me up and tells me which site I'll be working at so with all this in mind is it still possible for me to do get the money as I have zero proof

    also does small claims court cost money? I'm really clueless about all of this stuff and what should I mention in the letter just the hours and rates we agreed?

    Thank you
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 5th Sep 17, 11:25 AM
    • 134 Posts
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    Samsung_Note2
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 11:25 AM
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 11:25 AM
    When you say self employed..you gave him your UTR number im assuming...if not then your national insurance number and P45/p46 which would mean your PAYE.

    Or as with lots of door firms you may have been classed as a subby,sometimes subby to subby and its basicly cash in hand.

    Just to clarify been in the industry since 1992...seen all sorts of mickey taking.

    While its possible to be legit self employed in security industry its very uncommon,mostly its either on the books PAYE for horrendous money (£10 down to £7.50 believe it or not) or as said above the work is sub contracted,seen it subbed up to four times with each taking a small percentage just to fill places.

    Double check the terms you agreed with this "Agency".
    Last edited by Samsung_Note2; 05-09-2017 at 11:27 AM.
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 5th Sep 17, 12:11 PM
    • 13 Posts
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    iNeedHoney
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:11 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:11 PM
    When you say self employed..you gave him your UTR number im assuming...if not then your national insurance number and P45/p46 which would mean your PAYE.

    Or as with lots of door firms you may have been classed as a subby,sometimes subby to subby and its basicly cash in hand.

    Just to clarify been in the industry since 1992...seen all sorts of mickey taking.

    While its possible to be legit self employed in security industry its very uncommon,mostly its either on the books PAYE for horrendous money (£10 down to £7.50 believe it or not) or as said above the work is sub contracted,seen it subbed up to four times with each taking a small percentage just to fill places.

    Double check the terms you agreed with this "Agency".
    Originally posted by Samsung_Note2
    That's the thing there are no terms and I didn't give him anything not NI or UTR as I don't have a UTR because I haven't signed up as self-employed yet officially (was planning to do so asap) but I only worked for him about 1.5 months so this is why I'm concerned if I can even get my money because there's no "official" proof which shows I was working for him...

    The two times he paid me were just bank transfer and that's it, so in this situation is there much I can do~?
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Sep 17, 12:47 PM
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    Guest101
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:47 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:47 PM
    That's the thing there are no terms and I didn't give him anything not NI or UTR as I don't have a UTR because I haven't signed up as self-employed yet officially (was planning to do so asap) but I only worked for him about 1.5 months so this is why I'm concerned if I can even get my money because there's no "official" proof which shows I was working for him...

    The two times he paid me were just bank transfer and that's it, so in this situation is there much I can do~?
    Originally posted by iNeedHoney
    Did you issue any invoices?
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 5th Sep 17, 12:56 PM
    • 13 Posts
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    iNeedHoney
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:56 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 17, 12:56 PM
    Did you issue any invoices?
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Nope nothing of that sort at all, I asked him about these things but he sort of brushed it off and due to my own stupidity I didn't find out how this works I sort of took his word but obviously he was taking the !!!!...
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Sep 17, 2:40 PM
    • 15,128 Posts
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    Guest101
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 17, 2:40 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 17, 2:40 PM
    I mean it's worth the cost of a stamp, issue a letter before action, but going forward I'd probably not do much more
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 5th Sep 17, 2:47 PM
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    iNeedHoney
    I mean it's worth the cost of a stamp, issue a letter before action, but going forward I'd probably not do much more
    Originally posted by Guest101
    So what options do I really have considering my situation and lack of official documents or anything to indicate I was working for him?

    Also what shall I include in the letter? Thank you once again!
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Sep 17, 2:53 PM
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    Guest101
    So what options do I really have considering my situation and lack of official documents or anything to indicate I was working for him?

    Also what shall I include in the letter? Thank you once again!
    Originally posted by iNeedHoney


    Well a LBA is just an outline of your claim, you don't need to prove it at this stage.


    So typically include the amount, why you think it's owed, your payment terms (e.g. transfer within 14 days).


    You can google some templates, I think CAB have a good one
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 5th Sep 17, 4:52 PM
    • 13 Posts
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    iNeedHoney
    Well a LBA is just an outline of your claim, you don't need to prove it at this stage.


    So typically include the amount, why you think it's owed, your payment terms (e.g. transfer within 14 days).


    You can google some templates, I think CAB have a good one
    Originally posted by Guest101
    Sorry for the ignorance but what is LBA ? And from what you're saying I can get my money without having pretty much zero proof?
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 5th Sep 17, 5:04 PM
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    Guest101
    Sorry for the ignorance but what is LBA ? And from what you're saying I can get my money without having pretty much zero proof?
    Originally posted by iNeedHoney


    ok, step by step:


    LBA = Letter before Action - something you must send (or you are strongly advised to!) to anyone you are claiming money from, before going to court


    It depends on what happens after that. Sometimes the person simply pays as they don't want to risk going to court and having additional costs to pay. Sometimes they don't respond at all.


    You can then issue a small claim, cost is dependant on the amount claimed (google 'MCOL')


    At this stage if the other party fails to respond, you win by default.


    Even if they do respond, you can still win as the burden of proof is more sure than not (ie 51%), so if you can convince the judge that you are owed this money and order will be made for payment (a CCJ will be issued), if they fail to pay then a CCJ will be registered against them.
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 5th Sep 17, 5:57 PM
    • 13 Posts
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    iNeedHoney
    Thank you so much and sorry for being so clueless...I was reading about LBA's and it said one of the things to include is "copies of the key documents that you'll use to support your case"

    I don't have any key documents and I also want to know lets say he ignores my LBA then will I have a chance to win in court despite not having a Tax number and no real information to pass over?
    • Samsung_Note2
    • By Samsung_Note2 5th Sep 17, 6:50 PM
    • 134 Posts
    • 40 Thanks
    Samsung_Note2
    iNeedHoney....you have been working cash in hand,sounds like as you've given no NI or UTR you will owe both to tax man.

    Id walk away and remember next time you need to agree in writing pay rates..pay dates...make sure they ask for your NI number and a p45 or p46.

    Simply doing the hours and hope to get paid in our industry is quite honestly a 50/50 gamble.

    Expensive lesson...learn from it mate and all the best for future.
    Last edited by Samsung_Note2; 05-09-2017 at 6:53 PM.
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 5th Sep 17, 7:14 PM
    • 13 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    iNeedHoney
    iNeedHoney....you have been working cash in hand,sounds like as you've given no NI or UTR you will owe both to tax man.

    Id walk away and remember next time you need to agree in writing pay rates..pay dates...make sure they ask for your NI number and a p45 or p46.

    Simply doing the hours and hope to get paid in our industry is quite honestly a 50/50 gamble.

    Expensive lesson...learn from it mate and all the best for future.
    Originally posted by Samsung_Note2
    Yeah well bank transfer, I guess thats equivalent of cash in hand in this day and age...but even so can't I get the money and would I really owe the tax man because it's not like I've been earning over 15k which I heard is tax free when you become self employed...this amount I'm owed is only £200
    • jobbingmusician
    • By jobbingmusician 5th Sep 17, 8:54 PM
    • 18,783 Posts
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    jobbingmusician
    OK, here's your LBA.

    Headed paper (knock some up on the computer)

    His address
    Today's date.

    Dear xxxx

    LETTER BEFORE ACTION

    We agreed that I would work for you doing door supervisor work at a rate of xxx per hour. I worked for you from x.x.2017 to x.x.2017, when I gave you notice that due to your failure to issue with me a fixed rota, I could no longer work for you.

    I calculate that you owe me £198 for the work I performed during this period. I have attached a calculation showing the hours I worked, and what you have paid to date. I have tried to contact you by various means including phone and email [or whatever you have tried] but I cannot get hold of you. This letter is to inform you that if I do not receive payment in full by 13.9.17 [a full week after sending this email] I will pursue this claim through the small claims court, using Money Claims Online.

    I look forward to hearing from you with full payment.

    Yours sincerely



    If you do decide to use MCOL it is very simple to use, and will cost you the minimum fee of £35 (which, obviously, you add to your claim against the agency).
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    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 6th Sep 17, 11:12 AM
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    iNeedHoney
    Considering I don't have UTR number or am not even signed up for self-employed will this work? This is what I really need to know because I don't have much clue on how this work, some people in here have said I don't have much of a chance as it's basically "cash in hand" (not literally but yeah) we didn't agree any contract, he didn't ask me for anything document wise so do I really have a chance?
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 6th Sep 17, 11:26 AM
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    Guest101
    Considering I don't have UTR number or am not even signed up for self-employed will this work? This is what I really need to know because I don't have much clue on how this work, some people in here have said I don't have much of a chance as it's basically "cash in hand" (not literally but yeah) we didn't agree any contract, he didn't ask me for anything document wise so do I really have a chance?
    Originally posted by iNeedHoney
    Yes, but it's not 100%.


    A judge could believe you if you come across eloquently and confidently.


    If you lose, the costs are typically limited to the £35 fee and approx. £100 in costs to the other side (for a simple hearing)
    • iNeedHoney
    • By iNeedHoney 6th Sep 17, 11:58 AM
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    iNeedHoney
    Yes, but it's not 100%.


    A judge could believe you if you come across eloquently and confidently.


    If you lose, the costs are typically limited to the £35 fee and approx. £100 in costs to the other side (for a simple hearing)
    Originally posted by Guest101
    I see, how soon after will I have to go to court lets say if he doesn't respond to the email? Also I technically do have proof but it's on his end (the sign in sheets we use before work and I guess also with the owners of the sites they can check that I was there)

    I should know where the sheets are for two of the places as they are kept in the places of work
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