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    • Mothership405
    • By Mothership405 4th Sep 17, 10:53 AM
    • 7Posts
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    Mothership405
    Civil Enforcement- Popla code refusal- Help
    • #1
    • 4th Sep 17, 10:53 AM
    Civil Enforcement- Popla code refusal- Help 4th Sep 17 at 10:53 AM
    I received a non Pofa NTK from CEL, replied to them within 2 weeks by letter which they never acknowledged. I then received a PCN reminder so I sent the letter again by recorded delivery by this time it was just over the 28 days they stated. They then sent a letter back saying:-

    We refer to your recent letter, however it is now too late to make an appeal.

    You had a maximum 28 days to submit an appeal, therefore you are required to pay £100 within 14 days.

    I then sent them another letter stating that they had never acknowledged my first letter which was sent well within the 28 days and again my reasons I would not be paying, I was not the driver but the registered keeper so cannot be held liable etc. So either cancel the charge or send me my Popla code.

    Today I received a letter saying this:-

    We refer to your recent correspondence.

    We have already expended considerable time responding to your representations. we have clearly stated our case and cannot continue corresponding with you.

    The decision sent is final, and your continued failure to make payment will result in this matter being forwarded to a collection agency.

    So not sure where to go from here? They didn't respond in 14 days as per the BPA codes of practice, they just ignored my letter and refused to give me a Popla code. Any advice where I go from here?

    Thanks
Page 1
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 4th Sep 17, 11:03 AM
    • 10,203 Posts
    • 9,348 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #2
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:03 AM
    • #2
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:03 AM
    You complain forcefully to the BPA, sending copies of your correspondence and demanding that their member offer you POPLA following your first appeal.

    Was it sent online or by post?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Sep 17, 11:04 AM
    • 15,528 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:04 AM
    • #3
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:04 AM
    You need to raise a complaint with the BPA and copy it to the DVLA. But note that the BPA is a membership organisation, of which CEL is a member, and its first instinct is to protect its members. So don't hold your breath.

    If you get no joy there, then it's a case of riding this out for 6 years - the amount of time they have to pursue you through the county courts, which they may do, but don't worry about that as they never get to court, they just use the system to ratchet up the pressure on you, hoping you crack and pay them.

    They will send debt collector letters (just harmless letter, irritating, but harmless) you can ignore these, but do not ignore a Letter Before Claim from CEL or their solicitors, or real court papers. Come back if you receive either.

    Advice about dealing with (aka ignoring) debt collectors is given in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #4.

    HTH
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mothership405
    • By Mothership405 4th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mothership405
    • #4
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    • #4
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    I sent it by post but stupidly I didn't send the first one recorded.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 4th Sep 17, 11:50 AM
    • 3,494 Posts
    • 3,553 Thanks
    DoaM
    • #5
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:50 AM
    • #5
    • 4th Sep 17, 11:50 AM
    I sent it by post but stupidly I didn't send the first one recorded.
    Originally posted by Mothership405
    You didn't need to - all you needed was to send it first class and obtain a certificate of posting from the PO.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 4th Sep 17, 12:00 PM
    • 15,528 Posts
    • 24,249 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 4th Sep 17, 12:00 PM
    • #6
    • 4th Sep 17, 12:00 PM
    I sent it by post but stupidly I didn't send the first one recorded.
    Originally posted by Mothership405
    Which is what the BPA will play on. The fact you have no proof of posting. But as DoaM says, no need to spend on Signed For/Recorded Delivery when you can get a free Cert of Posting.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mothership405
    • By Mothership405 4th Sep 17, 12:30 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mothership405
    • #7
    • 4th Sep 17, 12:30 PM
    • #7
    • 4th Sep 17, 12:30 PM
    This the draft email I amended from another forum member, anything I should add?



    Dear Sir / Madam,

    I wish to make a formal complaint with regards to a Parking Charge Notice ref xxxxxxx issued to me (the vehicle keeper) on the 29/06/2017 by Civil Enforcement Ltd.

    I followed Civil Enforcement Ltd appeals process and submitted an appeal on 14th July 2017. I did not receive any acknowledgement of this appeal but did receive a Final Reminder dated 7th August 2017. I then resent my letter on 10th August to them to which their reply stated that I am now unable to appeal this PCN.

    I sent another letter informing them that I had already submitted my appeal within the 28 days and they had failed to respond to my initial letter of the 14th July, therefore either uphold my appeal or send me my Popla code.

    I have now received a letter from Civil Enforcement Ltd stating cessation of correspondence, they have stated their case and will not continue corresponding with me. They have still refused to give me a Popla code.

    In light of the above information I believe that Civil Enforcement are in breach of the British Parking Association Code of Practice 2012 - Version 6, October 2015, under sections 22.6 and 22.8.


    22.6 states:

    "When you receive a appeal about the issue of a parking charge, you must stop work on processing the charge immediately. You must not increase the charge until you have replied to the appeal."


    22.8 states:

    "You must acknowledge or reply to the appeal within 14 days of receiving it. If at first you only acknowledge the appeal, or your reply does not fully resolve it, normally we would expect you to seek the additional information you require from the motorist and accept or reject the appeal in writing not more than 35 days after the information required to resolve it has been received from the motorist. It is acknowledged that in exceptional circumstances, an investigation into a appeal may take longer than 35 days after such information has been received and in these instances the motorist must be advised accordingly and given a date by which they can expect a resolution. If this date cannot be achieved then the motorist must be written to again and a revised resolution date agreed. We may require you to demonstrate that you are keeping to these times."

    Due to Civil Enforcement failing to adhere to these conditions I believe that they are in breach of the Code of Practice and would appreciate you taking the appropriate action.

    I have attached the following documentation in support of this complaint:

    • Original postal Notice To Keeper
    • Reminder postal Notice To Keeper
    • Copy of my appeal letters
    • Copies of letters from Civil Enforcement Ltd

    Yours faithfully


    Cc DVLA - foi@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    • Mothership405
    • By Mothership405 14th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mothership405
    • #8
    • 14th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    • #8
    • 14th Sep 17, 11:24 AM
    So this was BPA's reply, typical always defend their own......

    Thank you for your email.

    As the operator is a member of the Approved Operator Scheme, they will have an appeals procedure in place so if appeal is received within the required timeframes, a response will be issued. We won’t enter into a dispute over what has or has not been received.

    I appreciate your view that you have proof of postage, but this is not proof of delivery, and the delivery is evidence that the appeal was received. Only when we know an operator has received an appeal within the required timeframes, and has failed to respond do we have the authority to intervene, as that would that be considered a breach of a point raised in the Code. Without this I am unable to assist you further. I would suggest that if you wish to contest the charge that you seek legal advice and do so via the legal system.


    Yours sincerely,


    So do I just wait for debt letters now?
    • Mothership405
    • By Mothership405 14th Sep 17, 1:51 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mothership405
    • #9
    • 14th Sep 17, 1:51 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Sep 17, 1:51 PM
    I'm going to reply to BPA with this, then forward complaint to Steve Clark, CCRT & David Dunford

    Your reply is as I expected it to be, as Civil Enforcement and yourselves are both members of the same association I fully expected you to be biased, I am however shocked that you would condone Civil Enforcement Ltd breaching the code of practice.

    I have a right to a Popla code as I appealed within the timeframe and proof of postage should be enough evidence.

    I will be escalating this complaint to Steve Clark, Head of Operational Services, Customer Complaint Resolution Team at the DVLA and David Dunford (DVLA).

    Regards


    Anything else I can add?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Sep 17, 1:57 PM
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    Umkomaas
    I appreciate your view that you have proof of postage, but this is not proof of delivery, and the delivery is evidence that the appeal was received
    Oh yes it is, and the Law, in the shape of the Interpretation Act 1978, backs you up. I'm afraid that with your proof of posting it is for CEL to prove that it wasn't delivered (good luck to them with that!).

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/30/section/7

    Another BPA, make it up as they go along to protect their members, fob-off line.

    I'd be minded to report this to David Dunford of the DVLA, as a consumer you are being mislead by the parking industry's regulatory body (so the DVLA believe!), with a statement that is quite contrary to the applicable Law.

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Mothership405
    • By Mothership405 14th Sep 17, 2:10 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mothership405
    Thank you, I will amend my reply stating the above and will report this in my email to David Dunford.
    • Mothership405
    • By Mothership405 14th Sep 17, 3:46 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Mothership405
    I received a reply back, here it is!

    Thank you for your further email.

    Having sought advice on the legislation you have quoted, it’s not for the BPA to determine whether the law has been broken or not. This would be a matter for the courts. However to assist you, I have asked the operator to confirm whether the appeal was received and upon receipt of a response we will be in touch.

    As per our own internal process, I’ve escalated your correspondence to our Operations Manager

    Yours sincerely

    I'm sure CEL will say yes we received the appeal letter but chose to ignore it!! They seem to have missed the point that I sent the appeal in time and have proof but CEL did not reply therefore they are in breach of the code of practice.

    I will continue to forward my complaint to CCRT, Steve Clark & David Dunford
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Sep 17, 4:41 PM
    • 15,528 Posts
    • 24,249 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Oh dear, another rubbish response.

    Having sought advice on the legislation you have quoted, it’s not for the BPA to determine whether the law has been broken or not.
    No one is accusing anyone of 'breaking the law'.

    However to assist you, I have asked the operator to confirm whether the appeal was received and upon receipt of a response we will be in touch.
    Whether CEL confirm or not, the appeal has been received. That's what the law says - unless they can prove otherwise.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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