Your browser isn't supported
It looks like you're using an old web browser. To get the most out of the site and to ensure guides display correctly, we suggest upgrading your browser now. Download the latest:

Welcome to the MSE Forums

We're home to a fantastic community of MoneySavers but anyone can post. Please exercise caution & report spam, illegal, offensive or libellous posts/messages: click "report" or email forumteam@.

Search
  • FIRST POST
    • EpicBox
    • By EpicBox 2nd Sep 17, 2:23 PM
    • 10Posts
    • 7Thanks
    EpicBox
    ParkingEye PCN, did not keep ticket for proof
    • #1
    • 2nd Sep 17, 2:23 PM
    ParkingEye PCN, did not keep ticket for proof 2nd Sep 17 at 2:23 PM
    On 6th August 2017 the driver paid for 1 hour in Holy Trinity Church car park in Newquay, Cornwall.

    Today, September 2nd, the keeper received a parking charge notice for staying a total of 1 hour and 13 minutes. The PCN is dated 30th August. I am aware that this might help give some leverage as it took them more than 14 days to issue the charge notice.

    I think one of the arguments to use in an appeal is that they are supposed to grant a grace period for the time taken to read the signs, pay, and leave afterwards. But since I disposed of the ticket, can I claim this without proof that the driver paid for that 1 hour?

    Since I paid by cash, there is no bank statement for evidence. However, the driver did enter the car's registration into the machine.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by EpicBox; 05-09-2017 at 9:46 AM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 2nd Sep 17, 2:41 PM
    • 16,487 Posts
    • 20,647 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 2nd Sep 17, 2:41 PM
    • #2
    • 2nd Sep 17, 2:41 PM
    chances are the pcn is for an overstay, not non-payment

    so if they are not saying that you failed to pay , its irrelevant becasue its likely they are alleging OVERSTAY (which is covered by clause #13 GRACE PERIODS in the BPA CoP)

    and the POFA2012 failure is an extra appeal point

    you could mention both these factors if you wish by ADDING to the blue text appeal (not altering it , but adding to it) - several examples of such an addition have been posted recently on here as overstays and POFA2012 failures are extremely common

    do not name the driver or infer who it was (important)

    choose KEEPER in their online appeal menu

    in future , KEEP those paid for tickets for quite a while

    why ? read this MSE report

    http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/team-blog/2017/05/30/throwing-pay-display-ticket-away-use-cost-100/
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Sep 17, 8:53 PM
    • 51,470 Posts
    • 65,059 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 2nd Sep 17, 8:53 PM
    • #3
    • 2nd Sep 17, 8:53 PM
    Yup, whatever you do, ONLY choose 'registered keeper' not 'driver'.

    You may as well use the template from the NEWBIES thread, it stops people saying who was driving. Sounds like you have a golden ticket from PE (search the forum!). You win!!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 2nd Sep 17, 9:34 PM
    • 10,200 Posts
    • 9,342 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #4
    • 2nd Sep 17, 9:34 PM
    • #4
    • 2nd Sep 17, 9:34 PM
    One point appeal. As keeper, they have failed to follow POFA. A NtK dated August 30th would be deemed to be delivered September 1st.

    You don't need anything else. Get your POPLA code and keep it simple.
    • EpicBox
    • By EpicBox 3rd Sep 17, 8:16 AM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    EpicBox
    • #5
    • 3rd Sep 17, 8:16 AM
    • #5
    • 3rd Sep 17, 8:16 AM
    [Deleted text to preserve anonymity]

    I also need to query this paragraph of the appeal template:

    "Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me. "

    Well... they already have the registered keeper's details. The letter has my name on the front (me being the keeper), and it says on the back "The registered keeper details have been provided by the DVLA".

    So, this paragraph strikes me as a bit redundant. Is there any benefit to me including that part?
    Last edited by EpicBox; 05-09-2017 at 9:47 AM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Sep 17, 8:50 AM
    • 16,487 Posts
    • 20,647 Thanks
    Redx
    • #6
    • 3rd Sep 17, 8:50 AM
    • #6
    • 3rd Sep 17, 8:50 AM
    edit the above to remove the idea of who did what

    the correct terms are

    THE DRIVER

    THE KEEPER

    PE have no idea of the details of the person who was driving , keep it that way

    nover use the words "ME , MYSELF and I" if you can avoid it, this isnt an english exam , lol

    the BPA CoP says nothing of the kind , please read clause #13

    it has an unspecified period before the parking period, so that would be say 5 to 10 minutes , and a MINIMUM of 10 minutes to leave, so 15 minutes may be construed from those 2 paragraphs , but so could 21 minutes, or 16 minutes , so I err on the side of up to 21 minutes when I advise people, hence my post earlier

    I also knew it wasnt about the ticket itself, as they would have been alleging an OVERSTAY

    there is nothing "redundant" in that blue text appeal , people always want to alter it or remove it for some reason , even when we tell them to use it "as is". this paragraph is your golden ticket to a DPA breach should it be the case down the line

    but to be pedantic, you are correct , so as I have told dozens of people before you, alter it to the past tense , because you are correct , its already done

    so "Should you have obtained" (so add 6 letters to make it grammatically correct)

    you will find some of my recent posts contain this phrase and some contain the whole wording suitably altered too

    good luck
    Last edited by Redx; 03-09-2017 at 8:52 AM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • EpicBox
    • By EpicBox 3rd Sep 17, 1:55 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    EpicBox
    • #7
    • 3rd Sep 17, 1:55 PM
    • #7
    • 3rd Sep 17, 1:55 PM
    the BPA CoP says nothing of the kind , please read clause #13

    it has an unspecified period before the parking period, so that would be say 5 to 10 minutes , and a MINIMUM of 10 minutes to leave, so 15 minutes may be construed from those 2 paragraphs , but so could 21 minutes, or 16 minutes , so I err on the side of up to 21 minutes when I advise people, hence my post earlier
    Originally posted by Redx
    Am I looking at the right CoP? The forum won't let me post a link but I Googled "BPA code of practice" and chose the top boxed result (or the 3rd main result) which is v8.

    Clause #13 is about getting driver data. The only part I see about a grace period relating to charges for overstay is Appendix B2.1: "The following vehicles must not be issued with a parking ticket: ... vehicles that have paid for parking and visibly display a payment ticket but have overstayed the ‘paid-for’ time displayed on the ticket by less than 5 minutes − unless they are committing some other breach of the regulations. You may only issue parking tickets after the
    5-minute ‘grace’ period has run out. "
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Sep 17, 2:04 PM
    • 16,487 Posts
    • 20,647 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 3rd Sep 17, 2:04 PM
    • #8
    • 3rd Sep 17, 2:04 PM
    edit post #5 asap (see above)

    here is the correct link

    http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Practice-and-compliance-monitoring

    top one dated oct 2015 , version 6

    see clause #13

    13 Grace periods

    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.

    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.

    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.

    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes.
    so clause #13 is much higher up than the appendix, ie:- page 9

    ps:- scroll to the very bottom of the one you downloaded and it is dated 2009
    Last edited by Redx; 03-09-2017 at 2:14 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Sep 17, 4:41 PM
    • 51,470 Posts
    • 65,059 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 3rd Sep 17, 4:41 PM
    • #9
    • 3rd Sep 17, 4:41 PM
    You have a GOLDEN TICKET! Of course you will win if you don't say who was driving!!

    You do not even need to mention Grace Periods - the keeper wins this appeal. Told you already:

    Yup, whatever you do, ONLY choose 'registered keeper' not 'driver'.

    You may as well use the template from the NEWBIES thread, it stops people saying who was driving. Sounds like you have a golden ticket from PE (search the forum!). You win!!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    So easy. You will win at POPLA; you will pay nothing.

    Love Golden Tickets from PE!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 03-09-2017 at 4:43 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 3rd Sep 17, 5:10 PM
    • 4,423 Posts
    • 2,753 Thanks
    KeithP
    Post#5 still needs editing.



    Post#1 needs similar adjustment.
    Last edited by KeithP; 04-09-2017 at 11:53 PM. Reason: To remove 'driver' hints
    .
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 3rd Sep 17, 6:22 PM
    • 10,200 Posts
    • 9,342 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    And look at page 11 here too http://www.popla.co.uk/docs/default-source/default-document-library/popla-annual-report-2016.pdf?sfvrsn=2
    • EpicBox
    • By EpicBox 4th Sep 17, 7:27 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    EpicBox
    Alright guys, if you could just give one final look over this before I submit my appeal to PE in the first instance, that would be much appreciated.

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. As the parking charge notice was delivered more than 14 days later than the day after the date of parking, you have not adhered to the Protections of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore have no right to obtain the name of the driver. You must provide me with a POPLA code or cancel the charge as soon as possible.

    Should you have obtained the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    Thanks again for all your assistance.

    (I didn't actually see anything involving a threat of court action in the PCN - do I need to worry about that if I'm mentioning it in my appeal?)
    Last edited by EpicBox; 05-09-2017 at 10:49 AM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 4th Sep 17, 7:50 PM
    • 16,487 Posts
    • 20,647 Thanks
    Redx
    firstly , remove the references above (I dont think you have got the hang of posting on a public forum so far - clue , ANONYMITY)

    and there is nothing in there about GRACE PERIODS either

    the last 2 paragraphs threaten a court case if those terms are breached (read what you have copied and pasted)

    no parking company is going to tell you on a pcn what you might be able to sue or countersue them for
    Last edited by Redx; 04-09-2017 at 7:53 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • EpicBox
    • By EpicBox 5th Sep 17, 7:36 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    EpicBox
    What I meant was, the template accuses PE of threatening court action, but I didn't see any mention of court on the PCN.

    I think I've managed to remove any incriminating references from my posts.

    How's this for a section about grace periods?

    The BPA Code of Practice states:

    "You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action."

    It additionally states:

    "You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action. If the location is one where parking is normally permitted, the Grace Period at the end of the parking period should be a minimum of 10 minutes."

    At a total of 13 minutes, the alleged overstay does not exceed a 10 minute ending Grace Period in addition to a reasonable grace period to read and understand the signs before the commencement of the contract.


    (Personally I think this is too easy to counter-argue so please improve it if you can.)
    • Redx
    • By Redx 5th Sep 17, 7:48 PM
    • 16,487 Posts
    • 20,647 Thanks
    Redx
    the template does not say that at all !!

    but the inference would be that failing to pay the pcn MAY result in court action (being sued) to recover the charge on the invoice, this is true of any invoice you receive. plus I can assure you that they will issue a court case if this pcn is ignored, they issue over 25 thousand per annum !!

    and the BPA CoP does indeed say that , so you are quite right to argue the case in the way you have done

    remember , they have to PROVE to popla (or a court) that their charge is valid , to make it stick

    clearly they have failed the BPA CoP , which they signed up to and is a mandatory agreement in order to have a KADOE contract with the DVLA

    as the newbies thread , plus the template tell you , the aim is to get either a cancellation or a popla code

    methinks you have spent enough time on this early stage , because the template could have been used "as is" , so I think that YOU are overthinking it !!

    so add the 2 together and get it submitted as KEEPER on their website , asap (no more faffing around) lol
    Last edited by Redx; 05-09-2017 at 8:04 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Sep 17, 8:18 PM
    • 51,470 Posts
    • 65,059 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    None of that is needed, because the keeper wins a non-POFA PCN as long as they don't choose 'driver'.

    You could have written that the driver was a walrus who couldn't read the signs, and still won at POPLA!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 5th Sep 17, 10:38 PM
    • 10,200 Posts
    • 9,342 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    You have a GOLDEN TICKET! Of course you will win if you don't say who was driving!!

    You do not even need to mention Grace Periods - the keeper wins this appeal. Told you already:



    So easy. You will win at POPLA; you will pay nothing.

    Love Golden Tickets from PE!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    As c-m wrote the NEWBIES thread and, I believe, the standard appeal therein, when she advises as above, please use your head and do what she says. You have ignored all the good advice you have been given.
    • EpicBox
    • By EpicBox 16th Sep 17, 9:26 PM
    • 10 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    EpicBox
    Alright guys I got my POPLA code.

    Do you think I will be OK to just appeal on the basis of 1) they can only charge the driver and 2) they cannot prove who was driving?
    I have an appeal drafted that covers these 2 points (copied from elsewhere in the forum and made sure it matches my case circumstances).
    Do you think I should also add more arguments as backup?

    - Grace periods
    - Lack of authority to form contracts
    - Breach of consumer rights act
    Should I spend any more time forming arguments based around those or will I be safe with my 2 points above?

    Sorry if I'm asking dumb questions. I suffer from anxiety and I'm not used to this stuff.

    Thanks again.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th Sep 17, 10:38 PM
    • 16,487 Posts
    • 20,647 Thanks
    Redx
    yes, definitely !!!

    and grace periods was your main appeal point , so should be number one of several , or number 3 seeing as they failed POFA2012 anyway

    you only have to win on one single point , they have to win on all points , so the more points you have , the greater the chance of having ONE winning point
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Sep 17, 12:58 AM
    • 51,470 Posts
    • 65,059 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Not just a single point, not if you are an anxious person. You need balls of steel to try a single point appeal to POPLA!

    Why not adapt this 'ParkingEye Golden ticket' one (post #4) and add the grace periods stuff from another one you can find easily, that covers the BPA Grace period rules?

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5711814
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

Welcome to our new Forum!

Our aim is to save you money quickly and easily. We hope you like it!

Forum Team Contact us

Live Stats

4,124Posts Today

4,823Users online

Martin's Twitter