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    • parcaal
    • By parcaal 31st Aug 17, 9:38 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 4Thanks
    parcaal
    LBCCC from PE - at Tesco store
    • #1
    • 31st Aug 17, 9:38 PM
    LBCCC from PE - at Tesco store 31st Aug 17 at 9:38 PM
    Hi all, I have received a PE PCN, reminder outstanding amount letter and now LBCCC by post asking for 100£ as the keeper of a vehicle.

    I have only started reading here yesterday and realised I should have reacted much quicker, but so far I have completely ignored the letters. The time for action seems to have arrived.

    Situation is as follows:
    Driver enters a retailer car park (used primarily by Tesco and Papa Johns) allowed for 20 min stay and stays 30 min (10 min over). I as a keeper of the vehicle have also made a purchase at Tesco of a small amount (£4) which can be proven from my bank statement.

    PCN letters have following detail: address of offence, car reg and details, my details as a keeper, pictures of the car entering and exiting the car park with time/date on them.

    Reminder letter has reference, address of offence, time, vehicle reg. It quotes Schedule 4 of Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) have been satisfied, so they have the right to ask the keeper for the cash. Remainder talks about involving Cred Reference Agency being involved and refer to PE vs. Beavis [2015] case.

    LBCCC refers again to POFA and Schedule 4 and argues that appeal time has lapsed. Remainder talks about court proceedings and further costs to be expected and give me 14 days to pay/respond.

    ----------------------------------------------
    After discussions in the forum, I have planned the following response:

    1. Complain to the retailer - Tesco team leader was very unhelpful, stating that car park and Tesco premises are separately owned. However, car park signage reminds very strongly of Tesco due to opening hours being the same as well as car par referring that customers only (not mentioning which) are allowed to park. See post #12 for details on signage.

    2. Drafted the following response to PE:

    Dear ParkingEye Legal Department,

    Re - your Letter Before County Court Claim re PCN: XXXXXXXXXX

    This is a formal response to your 'Letter before County Court Action' as the keeper of the vehicle in question. The driver's identity will not be supplied to you. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were. As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver.

    In your 'Letter before County Court Action' you have clearly failed to take into consideration and comply with Clause 13 “Grace Periods” of the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice:

    13 Grace periods
    13.1 Your approach to parking management must allow a driver who enters your car park but decides not to park, to leave the car park within a reasonable period without having their vehicle issued with a parking charge notice.
    13.2 You should allow the driver a reasonable ‘grace period’ in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.
    13.3 You should be prepared to tell us the specific grace period at a site if our compliance team or our agents ask what it is.
    13.4 You should allow the driver a reasonable period to leave the private car park after the parking contract has ended, before you take enforcement action.


    Should you seek to proceed with the court claim, this will form one part of any defence that is required should an MCOL be issued.

    I expect you to now cancel this 'parking charge' and admit your non-compliance with the British Parking Association’s Code of Practice.

    I expect to hear from you within 14 days to confirm that the charge is cancelled.

    Yours faithfully,

    (My name)

    (Address)
    Last edited by parcaal; 02-09-2017 at 2:51 PM. Reason: update status
Page 2
    • Redx
    • By Redx 3rd Sep 17, 1:35 PM
    • 16,105 Posts
    • 20,177 Thanks
    Redx
    the LAND REGISTRY website can tell you who the landholder is (for a small charge)

    they even wrote a post in another thread on here quite recently and gave some useful information
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • parcaal
    • By parcaal 17th Sep 17, 5:42 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    parcaal
    Hi all, I have a bit of of an update on this which I wanted to share so you can help how to continue.

    As I mentioned, I have send the email as advised here and received auto-reply to wait for 10 days for a response.

    In the meantime, PE reached me advising they obtained my "right" address from a credit rating agency. My address hasn't changed, but they must have tried to play a card that my address is different allowing me to pay the reduced fee of £60 if I paid in 14 days. They also mentioned I could appeal (I thought this right have lapsed).

    Then I received an email response from them - standard letter asking me to post my appeal to them if it is within 28 days of their initial communication.

    My current plan is try and appeal it - given the new written letter with the "right" address seems to be restarting the counter?

    Worst case, I can just print and post the letter I have emailed them above.

    If you have suggestions, will be much appreciated.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Sep 17, 1:10 AM
    • 50,750 Posts
    • 64,161 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    That's very good - that tracing letter DOES open the window to appeal, so start from scratch and appeal and win at POPLA!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • parcaal
    • By parcaal 18th Sep 17, 10:03 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    parcaal
    Just appealed - will keep you posted - hope it goes the standard way form now on.
    • parcaal
    • By parcaal 11th Oct 17, 9:40 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    parcaal
    Hi all,

    I have used the most standard letter that was available on the forum to appeal - it was rejected. In summary - they say that the breach of T&Cs for parking they had a reasonable cause to ask for personal data. To cease processing my data it has to cause stress/damage, and they don't believe it does in my case (they quote Data Protection Act about this). Also they say that because I have contacted them and requested POPLA code, they need to continue processing the data. So they rejected the appeal.

    I haven't sent them bank statement about the transaction - this has personal information on it so decided not to include it in the appeal.

    I don't seem to have received a POPLA code...

    I face two options now - wait for further info or contact them. Waiting is simple. The only action I can think of is to send my first letter (the one responding to the LBCCC) a bit tweaked to reflect it is not for a LBCCC anymore.

    Any suggestions for next actions? This seems to be taking quite some time to resolve the PCNs...
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 11th Oct 17, 10:03 PM
    • 523 Posts
    • 939 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Be aware that the parking eye online appeals forum has T&C's to the effect that you won't rely on any material in subsequent appeals not submitted during your first appeal.

    I believe that it is a term that infringes principles of natural justice and unlikely to be enforceable at Court. Nevertheless PE may try and rely on it at popla.

    You should redact your account details and other purchases (but not date/times of transaction) before relying on a bank statement.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Oct 17, 10:27 PM
    • 14,986 Posts
    • 23,544 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I haven't sent them bank statement about the transaction - this has personal information on it so decided not to include it in the appeal.
    But this often gets a cancellation from PE. They already know your name and address, so if you just redact your account and sort code numbers and any transactions not relating to the parking event, what’s the problem.

    I know this works because I did exactly that to have a PE PCN cancelled for one of my family.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • parcaal
    • By parcaal 11th Oct 17, 10:58 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    parcaal
    But this often gets a cancellation from PE. They already know your name and address, so if you just redact your account and sort code numbers and any transactions not relating to the parking event, what’s the problem.

    I know this works because I did exactly that to have a PE PCN cancelled for one of my family.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Given that driver is not named and the bank statement is mine, will this be a valid evidence?


    Be aware that the parking eye online appeals forum has T&C's to the effect that you won't rely on any material in subsequent appeals not submitted during your first appeal.

    I believe that it is a term that infringes principles of natural justice and unlikely to be enforceable at Court. Nevertheless PE may try and rely on it at popla.

    You should redact your account details and other purchases (but not date/times of transaction) before relying on a bank statement.
    Originally posted by Johnersh
    I have seen their clause about evidence supplied should be complete, but my thought process is this is fundamental right to provide evidence at any stage of a dispute process.

    I feel this might be best call for a next step.

    With regards to POPLA - how do is the number received? Is it separate from the appeal response?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 12th Oct 17, 10:34 AM
    • 14,986 Posts
    • 23,544 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Given that driver is not named and the bank statement is mine, will this be a valid evidence?
    But if PE have issued a compliant NtK then ‘hiding’ behind being the keeper is rather lost.

    But to get things in perspective, we are not dealing with a MI5 case, just a parking ticket. PE don’t have staff on constant alert looking to spot subtle ‘slips’ by motorists who’ve inadvertently let their guard down for a few seconds. It’s a factory operation they run - on a real industrial scale, a million or more tickets every year.

    Your bank statement is just that - a bank statement. It cannot be any proof of who drove the car, a friend or a family member could have driven it and dropped you there for shopping while they waited in the car.

    Frankly, given that they’ve met PoFA requirements, there’s little to lose from a redacted bank statement, and much more to win for you.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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