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  • FIRST POST
    • Moochover
    • By Moochover 31st Aug 17, 9:11 AM
    • 7Posts
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    Moochover
    NCP Appeal - Revised NTK and signage
    • #1
    • 31st Aug 17, 9:11 AM
    NCP Appeal - Revised NTK and signage 31st Aug 17 at 9:11 AM
    Hi there,

    At the risk of repeating nearly every other NEWBIE to enter the forum I was hoping for some adviceÖ

    Having taken the already existing advice of searching the forum to better educate myself Iím now met with the task of taking my interpretation of the existing advice and applying it to this particular case. I do appreciate that with extensive searching I may indeed find the answer that might yield the correct leveraging point but Iím looking for a few pointers based on experience to help accelerate my learning curve.

    This particular case (or series of) relates to 5 individual PCNs issued over the course of 3 weeks all from an NCP car park in England. It is not a railway car park but one that exists within a city in the East Midlands. The offences were captured via ANPR and the NTK issued to the Keeperís address (mine), albeit an older address which has not yet been transferred due to a recent move (very recent). The date of the offences and their respective date of issuing of the PCN (in brackets) are as follows; 01/08/17 (04/08/17), 04/08/17 (07/08/17), 12/08/17 (14/08/17), 18/08/17 (20/08/17). As the keeper Iíd just been informed (albeit it very luckily) by the new house owner of our previous property that we had some important mail and so picked them up to find that they were indeed PCNs. The first of the bunch is to be settled by the end of tomorrow, hence Iím keen for some advice on where to go with this.

    I have reviewed both the signage (having now walked through the car park myself) and NTK in line with the advice given from both the Seasoned Forum experts and having read through POFA 2012 schedule 4. From the forums the most applicable scenario I am able to find is as follows:

    hxxp://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5690981&highlight=ncp

    But since the writing of this post NCP appear to have amended both the NTKs and the signage and notifications placed in the parking facility. I will look to upload a further post of a copy of both the NTK and one of the signage place as an example of what is being put forth by NCP but Iím struggling to identify a weakness in these myself Ė there may well be (and hopefully is one) that exists but Iím not of sufficient experience to be able to spot or identify that weakness, hence why Iím turning to the forum for help. I believe that dropbox is the best method of doing this for a NEWB?

    Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. If I have failed to identify something quite obvious I apologise in advance but with the impending deadline of payment Iím looking for some help.

    As a note, there are limited options for the grounds of appeal on the NCP website and whilst I appreciate that I could appeal on any ground at this stage I canít help but feel that changing the grounds of appeal from one stage to another might look somewhat stupid on my part.

    Thanks

    Moochover
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 31st Aug 17, 9:24 AM
    • 15,566 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 31st Aug 17, 9:24 AM
    • #2
    • 31st Aug 17, 9:24 AM
    You need to deal with each NtK separately and appeal each one separately. You appeal by the method required by NCP, which should appear somewhere on the NtK, and by their deadline (usually 28 days).

    Use the ready-written initial appeal (the one in blue text) from the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #1. Use it 'as is' (no changes) for each NtK. You will have plenty of time to do further research/seek advice before appealing to POPLA as NCP have 35 days to respond to your initial appeal, and you then have a further 28 days to formulate your POPLA appeal.

    I wouldn't send all your initial appeals in one go, I'd spread them out a bit (within the 28-day deadlines) so you have time between each to deal with them in your own time. Once you've got a solid POPLA appeal sorted, it will be a copy and paste job for each - probably towards the end of October.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Moochover
    • By Moochover 31st Aug 17, 9:54 AM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Moochover
    • #3
    • 31st Aug 17, 9:54 AM
    • #3
    • 31st Aug 17, 9:54 AM
    I don't think my previous post made it through! Hence a slightly rewording version.


    Most likely a stupid questions that follows herein but I'm going to have to go with it I'm afraid, for the purposes of clarity on my part...


    The wording of the blue appeal text is done so on the grounds of signage (if I'm reading the right one here), and I guess the ultimate intention here is to provoke a response for a POPLA appeal code? On the basis that everyone uses this template irrespective of their eventual POPLA appeal grounds I guess then there is no link or at least a tenuous link between the PPC appeal and it's grounds of appeal and the eventual POPLA appeal (and it's grounds)? Or are you suggesting that the signage will form an inherent and mandatory part of any POPLA appeal in addition to the other points.


    I do apologise in advance and understand that it may be met with a sigh of tedium but I'm conscious not to let my lack of understanding or personal reservations over clarity effect the success of any appeal.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 31st Aug 17, 10:15 AM
    • 15,566 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 31st Aug 17, 10:15 AM
    • #4
    • 31st Aug 17, 10:15 AM
    We do get asked to repeat advice to the point of frustration. If you think their signage meets every last point required by the BPA CoP (which I presume you have read thoroughly), then leave it out. Your call.

    At POPLA you raise everything in your appeal, then it's for the PPC to prove you wrong. If they fail on any point, then you win. Work it out. Don't do the PPC's job for them.

    Please take advice from regulars. If you have doubts about a poster's standard of advice, then check his/her (yes, we have the most experienced private parking campaigner who is female advising here!) post count and number of 'thanks' to give you an idea of the quality of the advice.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 31-08-2017 at 10:22 AM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Moochover
    • By Moochover 31st Aug 17, 3:37 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Moochover
    • #5
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:37 PM
    • #5
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:37 PM
    Thanks I very much appreciate you're help on this.
    I have been reading my way through the BPA CoP as well as POFA 2012 Schedule 4 for any infringments on their part. In retrospect I can see that there may well be mistakes on their part with respect to Appendix B on signage and that is something I know I can make an assessment of. Again, I'm am going through every possible angle on the POFA 2012. My request was more related to someone with an experienced eye picking over the same information where I'm unable to find any.

    Whislt on the subject of the appeal I was thinking along the same lines as the post linked previously in #1 of this thread.
    As follows:
    1. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself - I have pictures of the car park and lack of signage in certain areas where the driver parked.
    2. NCP's Parking Charge Notice is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) due to the dates and the wording used - cannot see, given the revised NtK as linked below that there is any lack in the wording under which an appeal can be launched on this basis.
    3. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge - I have cross referenced the case utilised in this point (6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016) but the wording in the NtK appears to be different in my understanding. The case history appears to state that the wording from the PPC (in presumably the NtK) in that case did not transfer liability to the keeper in the ansence of driver information. The wording in the NtK at this point suggests to me that they have complied with POFA 2012 Sch 4, as above. Again would you agree?
    4. No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice - I Also intend to use this on the grounds of appeal in the hope that further deterants and mistakes might be drawn out. Presumably this is the tactic here?
    I would appreciate anyone and everyone's advice in reviewing the material posted in the links below.

    I'm also confident that there must be someway of working in the recent signage change that has seemingly taken place with the presence of the evidence left in the skip. Note: I could get to the old terms and conditions board inside the skip to photograph it as it was underneath some rather heavy rubble. I'd hoped this would yield some fruits as I'm quite confident it's all been changed around in the last few weeks.
    • Moochover
    • By Moochover 31st Aug 17, 3:39 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Moochover
    • #6
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:39 PM
    • #6
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:39 PM
    Signage Presented on Arrival:


    h ps: // ww.dropbox.com/s/guz4zty3xc4us9m/Sign.jpg?dl=0


    Evidence of Signage recently changed:


    h ps: // ww.dropbox.com/s/3xk5gjj5jzy1pp1/Evidence%20of%20recently%20changed%20signs.jpg?dl= 0


    PCN Sheet 1:


    To be reposted soon


    PCN Sheet 2:


    h ps: // ww.dropbox.com/s/tu7ij40unv6wvbk/PCN%20Sht2.jpg?dl=0
    Last edited by Moochover; 31-08-2017 at 11:09 PM. Reason: .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Aug 17, 3:41 PM
    • 51,562 Posts
    • 65,178 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #7
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:41 PM
    • #7
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:41 PM
    NCP's Parking Charge Notice is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) due to the dates and the wording used - cannot see, given the revised NtK as linked below that there is any lack in the wording under which an appeal can be launched on this basis.
    Look at 8(2)f of Sch4, then search the NCP NTK for the warning about 'keeper being liable'?

    Not there, is it? Not a POFA NTK then!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 31st Aug 17, 4:07 PM
    • 15,566 Posts
    • 24,303 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 31st Aug 17, 4:07 PM
    • #8
    • 31st Aug 17, 4:07 PM
    Your main task at the moment is to get the initial appeals in, one by one - space them out so you get the maximum time to deal with each - and get your POPLA codes. The basic template appeal is sufficient for that purpose.

    The other issues you are currently poring over are POPLA appeal items and we don't recommend showing your serious appeal points any earlier than in your actual POPLA appeal.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Moochover
    • By Moochover 31st Aug 17, 5:14 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Moochover
    • #9
    • 31st Aug 17, 5:14 PM
    • #9
    • 31st Aug 17, 5:14 PM
    Look at 8(2)f of Sch4, then search the NCP NTK for the warning about 'keeper being liable'?

    Not there, is it? Not a POFA NTK then!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad

    I'm clearly missing something here. The statement on Sht 1 of the PCN linked in the post above (from my previous post) states:


    "Please be warned: that if, after the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the Notice is given (i) the amount of the unpaid parking Charge specified in this notice has not been paid in full, and (ii) we do not know both the name of the driver and the current address for the driver, we will have the right to recover from you, so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid"


    That's directly lifted from Sch 4 Para 8 (f) of POFA by the looks of it.


    I feel I'm missing you're point about keeper liability but it's not clicking then if I am missing something.
    • Moochover
    • By Moochover 31st Aug 17, 5:22 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Moochover
    Your main task at the moment is to get the initial appeals in, one by one - space them out so you get the maximum time to deal with each - and get your POPLA codes. The basic template appeal is sufficient for that purpose.

    The other issues you are currently poring over are POPLA appeal items and we don't recommend showing your serious appeal points any earlier than in your actual POPLA appeal.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas

    I have taken your advice and submitted the first today, the next in the next few days...so on and so forth.


    As you've advised I've not shown any hand too soon. The reason for asking the questions now is to try to start formulating my POPLA appeal. I'm trying now to work on my interpretation of what is in front of me in relation to the Regulations and CoPs and if (and how) they might be applicable.


    I'd hoped that those with the experience might tell me where my interpretation or inexperienced judgment is failing me.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Aug 17, 5:36 PM
    • 51,562 Posts
    • 65,178 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I'm also confident that there must be someway of working in the recent signage change that has seemingly taken place with the presence of the evidence left in the skip. Note: I could get to the old terms and conditions board inside the skip to photograph it as it was underneath some rather heavy rubble.

    I'd hoped this would yield some fruits as I'm quite confident it's all been changed around in the last few weeks.
    Originally posted by Moochover
    I would do the above, definitely, because the BPA CoP expects extra signs in order to inform drivers familiar with the private land, about any new restrictions. Also take some carefully-angled photos and close ups of areas not well signed, usually who rows are able to be shown NOT signed, with careful photo angles!

    Also show if the PDT machines are hidden in a far corner, that few drivers would see. Make your photo evidence damning!

    Re the NCP NTK, you are correct, I take it back! They HAVE just improved their wording and that is a POFA one.

    You are most likely to win on signage evidence, or NCP not showing 'landowner authority' to the satisfaction of POPLA. Even if not, no-one here PAYS NCP!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 31-08-2017 at 11:20 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Moochover
    • By Moochover 31st Aug 17, 11:11 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 2 Thanks
    Moochover
    I would do the above, definitely, because the BPA CoP expects extra signs in order to inform drivers familiar with the private land, about any new restrictions. Also take some carefully-angled photos and close ups of areas not well signed, usually who rows are able to be shown NOT signed, with careful photo angles!

    Also show if the PDT machines are hidden in a far corner, that few drivers would see. Make your photo evidence damning!

    Re the NCP NTK, you are correct, I take it back! They HAVE just improved their wording and that is a POFA one.

    You are most likely to win on signage evidence, or NCP not showing 'landowner authority' to the satisfaction of POPLA. Even if not, no-one here PAYS NCP!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Please could you remove the link whilst I amend the image slightly please. I tried to detach the link at source but am unable to get to it via Dropbox due to my device and it's browser a the moment.

    Much appreciated
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Aug 17, 11:21 PM
    • 51,562 Posts
    • 65,178 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Done!


    Sorry, was distracted, following Transfer deadline day...!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Sep 17, 9:12 AM
    • 51,562 Posts
    • 65,178 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would do the above, definitely, because the BPA CoP expects extra signs in order to inform drivers familiar with the private land, about any new restrictions. Also take some carefully-angled photos and close ups of areas not well signed, usually who rows are able to be shown NOT signed, with careful photo angles!

    Also show if the PDT machines are hidden in a far corner, that few drivers would see. Make your photo evidence damning!

    Re the NCP NTK, you are correct, I take it back! They HAVE just improved their wording and that is a POFA one.


    You are most likely to win on signage evidence, or NCP not showing 'landowner authority' to the satisfaction of POPLA. Even if not, no-one here PAYS NCP!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Just to add that NCP NTKs in fact have a flaw worth pointing out to POPLA:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=73014427#post73014427

    Whilst NCP have correctly stated the 28 days timeline, the actual wording about how a keeper is liable/not liable, is seriously flawed and does not match the prescribed warning in 8(2)f of schedule 4, which is silent on 'making representations'.

    This NTK wrongly tells the keeper that, under the POFA Sch 4, they will be liable 'unless they comply with the above' which is a list of three options. It includes ''making a representation'' as one of the three choices. So, the keeper just has to ''comply'' by making an appeal, and going by the instructions in that letter, they can reasonably understand they are then not liable.

    NCP have muddled one 28 day term (appeal) with a completely different thing (the POFA liability wording) and in doing so, prejudice the registered keeper's understanding about liability. There can be no other interpretation of that NTK than to believe that a keeper can ''comply'' by ''making representations'' within 28 days and therefore, they will then not be liable.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 13-09-2017 at 7:02 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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