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  • FIRST POST
    • cezairs
    • By cezairs 30th Aug 17, 6:58 PM
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    cezairs
    Sick Pay 12 Month Rolling Period
    • #1
    • 30th Aug 17, 6:58 PM
    Sick Pay 12 Month Rolling Period 30th Aug 17 at 6:58 PM
    Hello All,


    My employers sick policy is 30 days full pay followed by 30 days half pay in a rolling 12 month period.


    I have had operations -
    Jan 2016 - Using 4 weeks / 20 days full pay.
    June 2016 - Using 2 weeks 10 days full pay and 4 weeks 20 days half pay
    Jan 2017 - Using 2 weeks / 10 days half pay, they extended half pay by 3 weeks 15 days and I had 1 week / 7 days unpaid.
    Aug 2017 - Another operation which I will need at least 6 weeks off work. But could be longer repending on recovery.


    I have been told I shall get 4 weeks half pay and then nothing.


    I cannot get my head around this 12 month rolling period. I have had 53 days sick in the last 12 months, with 21 days of half pay from my entitlement and then a further 15 they gifted me.

    Am I being dim ?
    When would full pay kick in again ?


    I have emailed our HR and the response was -
    "I will look at the pay query when I'm in work next; because it is accumulative or is unlikely you will get full pay but I need to check it out thoroughly before responding. I will try and do this ASAP for you so you know what's what"

    Thanks for any help. (not normally this ill just a couple of years bad luck - last two ops are hip replacements)
Page 1
    • Guest101
    • By Guest101 30th Aug 17, 9:08 PM
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    Guest101
    • #2
    • 30th Aug 17, 9:08 PM
    • #2
    • 30th Aug 17, 9:08 PM
    I would have thought the rolling period starts from first day of sickness?
    • dipsy
    • By dipsy 31st Aug 17, 3:31 PM
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    dipsy
    • #3
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:31 PM
    • #3
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:31 PM
    do you know why they gave you the extra 15 days half pay in January 2017?

    Anyway the 12 months will roll back to the first day of sick

    so if you went off sick 30/08/17 they will roll back the sick pay till that date in 2016

    Something doesn't look quite right

    so in January 2017 they looked back to January 2016 - you had used all your full pay sick and all your half pay sick, but they gave you 15 more days half pay and 7 days unpaid (did you get SSP)?
    2007 £1749
    2008 £291.99
    2009 JanMasscara £7.00 Feb megcabot books x 2 £20 XFactor tkts x 2 £58.00 (couldn't go though as they only phoned on day :-( ) foundation £7.99
    total so far for 09 £92.99
    • ReadingTim
    • By ReadingTim 31st Aug 17, 3:53 PM
    • 2,149 Posts
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    ReadingTim
    • #4
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:53 PM
    • #4
    • 31st Aug 17, 3:53 PM
    The 12 month rolling period will be retropsective - ie they will look at what you've had in the previous 12 months when calculating what you're due. Therefore, as of today (31 August 2017), the period in question would be 1 September 2016 - 31 August 2017.

    I don't know if this is calculated on a daily basis, or when it's just when the current period of sickness starts/ends (check your company's sickness policy), but for you as of today, full pay won't kick in until January 2018 at the earliest, or August 2018 if the last operation you mention has already happened.
    • montyrebel
    • By montyrebel 5th Sep 17, 9:57 AM
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    montyrebel
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:57 AM
    • #5
    • 5th Sep 17, 9:57 AM
    when does your working year start? ie when do your holidays renew, in my job its 1st april, maybe they are taking it as a year from say 1st april - 31st march etc
    mortui non mordent
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 5th Sep 17, 2:38 PM
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    getmore4less
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 2:38 PM
    • #6
    • 5th Sep 17, 2:38 PM
    For a true rolling 12 months you should look at any 12 month period and get upto 30days full + 30days 1/2.


    Depending on the actual dates some of the Jan 17 should have been full pay as the jan16 sick rolled out of the 12months.

    As of Aug 17 you have had no days on full pay in the previous 12 months so are due 30.
    • ReadingTim
    • By ReadingTim 5th Sep 17, 4:00 PM
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    ReadingTim
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:00 PM
    • #7
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:00 PM
    As of Aug 17 you have had no days on full pay in the previous 12 months so are due 30.
    Originally posted by getmore4less
    Wrong.

    In Jan 17 the OP was down to unpaid leave - they'd used up all of their full and half pay sick leave allowance. The "rolling 12 months" is retrospective, so they're not eligible for full pay again until Jan 18 because at any time before then, they will have been off sick within the past 12 months. As the sick leave is cumulative, and they'd used it all up, they wouldn't be entitled to any more.

    Furthermore, if they had their Aug 17 operation, and needed at least 6 weeks off, they wouldn't be eligible for full pay again until Aug/September 2018, for the same reason outlined above.
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 5th Sep 17, 4:16 PM
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    getmore4less
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:16 PM
    • #8
    • 5th Sep 17, 4:16 PM
    Wrong.

    In Jan 17 the OP was down to unpaid leave - they'd used up all of their full and half pay sick leave allowance. The "rolling 12 months" is retrospective, so they're not eligible for full pay again until Jan 18 because at any time before then, they will have been off sick within the past 12 months. As the sick leave is cumulative, and they'd used it all up, they wouldn't be entitled to any more.

    Furthermore, if they had their Aug 17 operation, and needed at least 6 weeks off, they wouldn't be eligible for full pay again until Aug/September 2018, for the same reason outlined above.
    Originally posted by ReadingTim
    What you are describing is not a proper 12 month rolling period.

    The 12month period end Aug 16 end Aug 17 they have not had the 30 days full pay
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 5th Sep 17, 5:23 PM
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    TELLIT01
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 17, 5:23 PM
    • #9
    • 5th Sep 17, 5:23 PM
    Without full knowledge of your contract and anything in there further explaining qualifying conditions for sick pay it's impossible to give a definitive answer. Any, or none, of the responses could be right.
    • cezairs
    • By cezairs 5th Sep 17, 6:13 PM
    • 35 Posts
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    cezairs
    Thank you
    Thank you all for the replies.


    I work in a school so not due to be paid till 4th Sept when term starts.


    Brief recap-


    Neck Operation - Jan 2016
    10 days full pay


    Gastric Operation - May till July 2016
    20 days half pay
    19 days half pay


    Hip Replacement - Jan till March2017
    Half pay =21 days
    (employer offered to extend this half pay till 8th March = 25 days)
    I then had a further 7 days unpaid.


    Hip Replacement 30th Aug 2017
    Currently signed off


    Wording in my paperwork I have is -
    During any period of one year, if you are absent by reason of sickness, you are entitled to sick leave with pay as follows :
    Full pay for 30 working days and half pay for 30 working days.


    I have today received an email from my HR which has left me further confused -


    I’ll try to explain for you…….So your entitlement is 30 days full pay and 30 days half pay then nil pay – so absences starting the 12 months prior to the start date of your new absence gets taken into account and accumulates into the entitlement.

    e.g. you have already had 30 days full pay and 11 days half pay – and this is in the last twelve months. (It may appear you have had pay for longer as holiday breaks are not taken into account).

    I think why it is hard to understand because (I think!) years ago the absence pay (under old Local Authority rules) used to refresh each twelve month period – but this is not the case now which is why it is a ‘rolling’ twelve months – the ‘rolling’ being all absences are included up to the twelve months prior to the start of the new absence.

    e.g. an employee was absence for Jan / Feb (exhausted full and half pay) in 2000 – then in 2001 was absent in March – this would not include the absence in Jan / Feb in 2000 as it exceeds the rolling year. But if they went off in Jan 2001 it would. It’s the best way I can explain it , but I hope you can now see how this is calculated.

    I even confuse myself talking about it! I hope the above explains this better for you.
    • IAmWales
    • By IAmWales 5th Sep 17, 6:49 PM
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    IAmWales
    The HR explanation is correct, but you disagree with what you have had in the last twelve months.

    you have already had 30 days full pay and 11 days half pay – and this is in the last twelve months.
    Is this correct?
    • cezairs
    • By cezairs 5th Sep 17, 6:57 PM
    • 35 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    cezairs
    Thank you for the reply


    I have had 21 days half pay that was my entitlement in January 2017. My employer gifted me a further 25 days of half pay.


    Those days she has used there are just an example as are the dates in the rest of the email,


    From Sept 4th 2016 and Sept 4th 2017
    I have had one operation and 21 days half pay from my sick entitlement.
    I have no idea where I stand with the gifted days ?


    I have contacted UNISON in the hope I can get some help.
    • TELLIT01
    • By TELLIT01 5th Sep 17, 9:18 PM
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    TELLIT01
    I get the impression that even HR aren't convinced that they have it right so the UNISON route is probably the best way to go.
    I would have thought the absences in January 2016 and May-July 2016 would have 'fallen off' by now so shouldn't be involved in calculation for any current absence.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 5th Sep 17, 10:02 PM
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    Manxman in exile
    OP - as you say, HR have simply given an "example". When I first read your post I thought the answer was obvious. (I used to monitor sickness absence across a NHS trust). But the more I think about it the more I confuse myself. I know what a "rolling 12 month period" is, but I'm having difficulty applying it in practice. (Probably been retired too long!)


    The question must be: "How much of your sick pay entitlement has been used up in the last 12 months?"


    You need to address this question to HR and you also need to ask them for their calculation of what they think you are currently entitled to. In my experience, HR generally get this sort of thing right, but they also get many calculations wrong. You need to see how they've arrived at their answer.


    (The difficulty I'm having is envisaging sickness dropping out of the front end of the rolling 12 months and this "reviving" an entitlement to sick pay. That doesn't seem right to me, but perhaps I'm too thick to come up with a good example).
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 5th Sep 17, 10:09 PM
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    Manxman in exile

    Wording in my paperwork I have is -
    During any period of one year, if you are absent by reason of sickness, you are entitled to sick leave with pay as follows :
    Full pay for 30 working days and half pay for 30 working days.

    .
    Originally posted by cezairs

    I've probably drunk too much Stoli but...


    You said in the OP "12 months rolling period" but you say your contract says "period of one year".


    Are these the same? Does your contract define "period of one year"?
    • getmore4less
    • By getmore4less 6th Sep 17, 1:27 AM
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    getmore4less
    In one place they say it is not a calendar year(don't count holiday) but then use a calendar year example.

    Get the policy they don't seem to have a clue.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 6th Sep 17, 9:58 AM
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    Manxman in exile
    And what do HR mean by "holiday breaks are not taken into account"?


    Do they mean they don't form part of the rolling year(!) or do they mean payments made then don't count?


    They seem to be saying you may think you've been paid more days than you're entitled to(?) so maybe it's the latter.


    Seems far too confusing to me.


    You need to challenge HR to provide the calculations, and if you can't understand them, ask HR to explain (if they can!).
    • cezairs
    • By cezairs 6th Sep 17, 10:57 AM
    • 35 Posts
    • 5 Thanks
    cezairs
    Thank you all again.
    My difficulty has been getting actual dates and days from them.
    She just keeps giving me examples..............why not just use 'my dates and days' ?!?


    I work in a school and work 40 weeks am paid 4 weeks holiday but pay is spread over 12 months.
    I am wondering if they are saying its 12 working months.......which even if they did the dates would still only include my January op.


    I have asked her to clarify the exact time period we are talking about first, I will then ask her what time she thinks I have had off in that space of time.


    I am differentiating here as I would for the students I work with............which I really shouldn't have to be doing !


    As well as UNISON I have asked for clarification from head office.
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 6th Sep 17, 11:47 AM
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    Manxman in exile
    Presumably the school has a computerised payroll system? HR should be able to pull your sickness record off the system and show it to you to avoid doubt. They must(?) have already done this to tell you what they think your entitlement is.


    It can't be a "working 12 months" (ie excluding holidays) as that would be infernally complicated, surely? The rolling 12 months would keep jumping around as holidays dropped out and dropped in
    • Manxman in exile
    • By Manxman in exile 6th Sep 17, 3:08 PM
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    Manxman in exile
    In the last rolling 12 months (Jan 2017) you've had 10 days contractual half-pay. (Ignore the additional "extra days" for now). So what about your entitlement to full days pay in that period?


    I think HR are saying that because you've almost exhausted your entitlement during the last 12 months (except for the 20 days half-pay they say you can have), you aren't entitled to any more until 12 months after(?) your full pay entitlement expired (Jan 2018?).


    Whether that's the correct interpretation, I don't know, but I think that's what they're saying.


    Maybe it's me, but a rolling year seems unnecessarily confusing...
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