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  • FIRST POST
    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 24th Aug 17, 9:20 PM
    • 145Posts
    • 28Thanks
    Black_Eyeliner
    Horizon PCN and lease car
    • #1
    • 24th Aug 17, 9:20 PM
    Horizon PCN and lease car 24th Aug 17 at 9:20 PM
    I know there's loads of brilliant information in the sticky, so please don't jump down my threat for posting a new thread on this subject.... but I just need to check I'm doing the right thing.

    I live in Scotland and have a lease car. The fleet owners (NHS fleet solutions) have kindly given Horizon my name as the driver of the vehicle at the time the PCN was issued, and Horizon have now sent me a reminder notice.

    Am I reading the advice correctly? Do I just ignore all correspondence from Horizon because I live in Scotland?
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Aug 17, 9:30 PM
    • 15,548 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 24th Aug 17, 9:30 PM
    • #2
    • 24th Aug 17, 9:30 PM
    They can't have given your details as 'the driver', because they can't know who the driver at the material time was. And you're not going to say on here who it was - are you?

    Officially you are the day-to-day keeper of the vehicle, and that's the way you need to keep it. No protests here about semantics - you are the day-to-day keeper, period! As the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 doesn't apply in Scotland, the PPC cannot pursue the keeper for alleged outstanding private parking charges.

    Did the alleged parking transgression take place in Scotland?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Aug 17, 9:33 PM
    • 51,537 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #3
    • 24th Aug 17, 9:33 PM
    • #3
    • 24th Aug 17, 9:33 PM
    Am I reading the advice correctly? Do I just ignore all correspondence from Horizon because I live in Scotland?
    Originally posted by Black_Eyeliner
    Usually in Scotland, yes. But to stop Horizon having any excuse to bother the Lease firm ever again about this (who might fold and pay upon any second letter) I would write acknowledging the 'reminder' letter.

    I would confirm that yes, you were the hirer of the car on the material date but they have failed to send you the required documents for any Notice to Hirer and in any case, because you stay in Scotland there can be no liability for owner, keeper or hirer, because the POFA does not apply. Only the driver could be liable, potentially, so have a laugh and ask them for their evidence as to the identity of that person, so you can pass the Notice to them.

    And if this was at a retail park, Sainsburys, or a Hospital then complain to that site agent or landowner immediately about this scam PCN, getting angry about the harassment. Landowner cancellations are common, in E, W or Scotland.

    Don't say who was driving in any communication, and don't start replying to Horizon again. I suggest that one response, designed merely to stop H from writing back the the Lease firm if H had nothing but radio silence from you. They shouldn't/can't revert back to the Hire company, but since when did that stop nasty parking firms?!

    Then sit tight and ignore the sort of debt collector letters covered in post #4 of the NEWBIES thread.




    P.S. my reply assumes that the land was in Scotland too, and so POPLA won't be offered.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 24-08-2017 at 9:36 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 24th Aug 17, 10:08 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Black_Eyeliner
    • #4
    • 24th Aug 17, 10:08 PM
    • #4
    • 24th Aug 17, 10:08 PM
    Thanks to you both.

    Yes the PCN was issued in Scotland. I should've made that clearer. It was in a small car park presumably belonging to the shops next to it (Gregg's, Sainsbury's and Timpsons).

    I was thinking about writing to Horizon to ask how they know it was me who was driving because their reminder clearly states that I was the driver at the time the PCN was issued. I agree that clarifying that I am the hirer, which is obviously not the same as the driver, can only be helpful.

    The fact that NHS fleet solutions hasn't paid the PCN, nor has it charged me for giving Horizon my details, makes me think they're unlikely to cave in and pay on my behalf. But you never know!

    Thanks!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 24th Aug 17, 10:21 PM
    • 15,548 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #5
    • 24th Aug 17, 10:21 PM
    • #5
    • 24th Aug 17, 10:21 PM
    because their reminder clearly states that I was the driver at the time the PCN was issued.
    If you're going to fire off any letters, I'd address one directly to David Dunford of the DVLA (Data Sharing Manager - and influential in this line of DVLA interface with private parking) to complain that Horizon are making claims against you (that you were the driver) without any substantive evidence, making a misleading statement in order to falsely claim that you are liable for this parking charge. Copy all appropriate/relevant documents to DD. Ask him to issue sanctions against Horizon.

    You also copy this in to the BPA and ask them to similarly issue sanctions and confirm that they have done so. Make sure each letter shows 'cc to the other' to ensure they know that others are involved.

    If you want to create other mischief, copy both letters to Horizon.

    You can't let these !!!!! get away with sloppy accusations, designed to put pressure on you and harass you to part with your money - to their enrichment. Here are some contact details:

    Complaints to the BPA and DVLA can be emailed to:

    aos@britishparking.co.uk

    or (if posting)

    British Parking Association
    Stuart House
    41-43 Perrymount Road
    Haywards Heath
    West Sussex
    RH16 3BN

    and DVLA:

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 24th Aug 17, 10:55 PM
    • 51,537 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 24th Aug 17, 10:55 PM
    • #6
    • 24th Aug 17, 10:55 PM
    I was thinking about writing to Horizon to ask how they know it was me who was driving
    NONONONONONONONONONO. Not how they ''know it was me''!

    Ask in the way I put it, for their evidence as to the identity of the driver so that you can pass the notice to them.

    You could also ask whether they are holding you liable as keeper and on what basis.

    And do as Umkomaas advises as well, because David Dunford will be interested if a firm is trying to suggest a rk in Scotland can be liable in law.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 25th Aug 17, 6:33 AM
    • 145 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Black_Eyeliner
    • #7
    • 25th Aug 17, 6:33 AM
    • #7
    • 25th Aug 17, 6:33 AM
    I'll draft a letter to Horizon and put it on here before I send it. If I have time, I'll draft letters to the DVLA and BPA. Thanks again.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 25th Aug 17, 10:59 AM
    • 866 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #8
    • 25th Aug 17, 10:59 AM
    • #8
    • 25th Aug 17, 10:59 AM
    Not "if you have time"
    It will take a couple of lines, so 10 min max.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 25th Aug 17, 11:09 AM
    • 6,349 Posts
    • 8,155 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #9
    • 25th Aug 17, 11:09 AM
    • #9
    • 25th Aug 17, 11:09 AM
    I'll draft a letter to Horizon and put it on here before I send it. If I have time, I'll draft letters to the DVLA and BPA. Thanks again.
    Originally posted by Black_Eyeliner
    I do not understand ... if you have time" ?

    This PPC is causing you grief ... you need to return it and
    the avenue is the BPA and DVLA
    Stop them from also giving grief to others

    It's you, me and everyone being hit by scamming cowboys
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 29th Aug 17, 12:38 PM
    • 145 Posts
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    Black_Eyeliner
    Points above accepted. In the meantime, here is my draft letter to Horizon:

    Dear Sir or Madam

    Ref No XXX

    Thank you for your letter dated 9 August 2017 in which you allege that I was the driver of vehicle registration XXX when your terms and conditions were allegedly contravened on 9 June 2017, causing you to issue a Parking Charge Notice (PCN). I lease the vehicle in question, and I am therefore the hirer. You will be aware that, as the hirer, I am not liable to pay the PCN.


    I would be grateful if you could provide a description of the person who was driving the car I lease at the time of the alleged contravention of your terms and conditions. This would assist me in confirming who the driver was. If you are unable to provide me with a description, I would ask that you cancel the PCN.

    Yours faithfully
    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 29th Aug 17, 8:31 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Black_Eyeliner
    Can anyone give me some feedback on my draft (above)?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Aug 17, 6:49 PM
    • 51,537 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    I'd say you need more here, because Hirers CAN be held liable (just not this time!):
    You will be aware that, as the hirer, I am not liable to pay the PCN in a case where the parking firm has failed to serve a POFA-compliant 'Notice to Hirer' with the accompanying lease documents as prescribed clearly in para 13/14 of the POFA, schedule 4.

    It is now too late for you to rectify your error and omission, and to continue to pursue me is becoming a matter of harassment and causing significant distress. Identifying the driver is your burden, as claimant, so please respond to my request below.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 30th Aug 17, 8:17 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Black_Eyeliner
    Thanks very much for your help. I'll make the change you have suggested and get my letter sent off.
    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 10th Sep 17, 12:24 PM
    • 145 Posts
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    Black_Eyeliner
    Here is my letter:

    Dear Sir or Madam

    Ref No XXX

    Thank you for your letter dated 9 August 2017 in which you allege that I was the driver of vehicle registration XXX when your terms and conditions were allegedly contravened on 9 June 2017, causing you to issue a Parking Charge Notice (PCN). I lease the vehicle in question, and I am therefore the hirer.

    You will be aware that, as the hirer, I am not liable to pay the PCN in a case where the parking firm has failed to serve a Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) compliant 'Notice to Hirer' with the accompanying lease documents as prescribed clearly in para 13/14 of the POFA, schedule 4. It is now too late for you to rectify your error and omission, and I would therefore request that you cancel the PCN.

    Yours faithfully


    And here is Horizon's standard reply:


    Thank you for your correspondence regarding the above Parking Charge

    I confirm the Parking Charge Notice was issued correctly and legally in accordance with the British Parking Associations (BPA) Code of Practice

    It is stated on signage on entry and within the car park that terms and conditions apply when parking within this particular car park. One of the terms and conditions is that vehicles must not exceed the 45-minute maximum period allowed. As vehicle XXX was found to be parked longer than the maximum period allowed, a Parking Charge Notice was correctly issued.

    Signage throughout the car park is compliant with the BPA rules and regulation. The signage is quite clear in its intent and is located throughout the car park. When parking on private land it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure they adhere to the terms of the conditions of the car park

    In light of this, your representations have been carefully considered and rejected

    The charge will be held at the current rate of £40.00 for a further 14 days from the date of this correspondence.

    Payment of the outstanding charge can be made using our 24-hour payment line: 0330 008 1610 or online at www.pay.horizonparking.co.uk

    Please be advised £1.50 handling charge will be applied to debit and credit card payments

    Alternatively, payment can be made via cheque made payable to Horizon Parking Ltd and posted to Horizon Parking Ltd, Finitor House, 2 Hanbury Road, Chelmsford, Essex, CM1 3AE

    You have now reached the end of our appeals procedure.

    Kind Regards


    The response does not address my question at all. Any thoughts on how I should respond?
    • Edna Basher
    • By Edna Basher 10th Sep 17, 1:08 PM
    • 591 Posts
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    Edna Basher
    Is that all Horizon said in their letter? They should have provided you with a POPLA Code.

    Edit - ignore the above ^^ - as catfunt highlights below, Scotland = no POPLA (thanks catfunt)
    Last edited by Edna Basher; 10-09-2017 at 2:48 PM.
    • catfunt
    • By catfunt 10th Sep 17, 2:38 PM
    • 595 Posts
    • 912 Thanks
    catfunt
    Is that all Horizon said in their letter? They should have provided you with a POPLA Code.
    Originally posted by Edna Basher
    Scotland.........
    Got a Private Parking Notice??
    ** Do Not Pay
    ** Do Not Ignore a Notice to Keeper (except Scotland)
    ** Do not mention who was driving (No "Me" Myself" "I")
    ** Never, ever phone a Private Parking Company
    ** Please read the NEWBIES thread at the top of the forum
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Sep 17, 6:58 PM
    • 15,548 Posts
    • 24,259 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Is that all Horizon said in their letter? They should have provided you with a POPLA Code.

    Edit - ignore the above ^^ - as catfunt highlights below, Scotland = no POPLA (thanks catfunt)
    Originally posted by Edna Basher
    Nor PoFA. The OP has distracted Horizon away from the hire company, so they're not going to get paid by them. They have no legal scope to pursue a hirer, and they don't know who the driver was.

    Up the creek without a paddle, and nothing whatsoever on the horizon for them either!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Black_Eyeliner
    • By Black_Eyeliner 10th Sep 17, 7:56 PM
    • 145 Posts
    • 28 Thanks
    Black_Eyeliner
    So should I just ignore them from now on? Their response to my letter doesn't actually address what I've said, which is that their PCN isn't legal without a notice to hirer, etc.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 10th Sep 17, 8:58 PM
    • 15,548 Posts
    • 24,259 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    which is that their PCN isn't legal without a notice to hirer, etc.
    Nothing 'illegal' about their PCN. A 'Notice to Hirer' is only a requirement of PoFA for transferring liability to the hirer, but as there's no PoFA in Scotland, its irrelevant - hence my previous comment.

    Your primary job was to distract the PPC from obtaining the hire company details from the DVLA, then issuing a NtK to the hire company and the hire company paying the charge, then billing you with an additional admin charge tacked on.

    Your next job is to never reveal to the PPC the details of the driver - and the way to do that is to ignore anything you receive from the PPC (short of court papers - vanishingly unlikely in Scotland), then you won't inadvertently disclose the identity of the driver.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Sep 17, 11:12 PM
    • 51,537 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Yep, you've done all you needed to do and now you just ignore the threatograms, which will come to you rather than the company, which is exactly where you want to be so no idiot is going to pay it! They do not know who was driving, keep it that way.

    Come back only if they try a claim (highly unlikely in Scotland but no big deal). Keep all correspondence for 5 years then it's over.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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