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  • FIRST POST
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 23rd Aug 17, 9:50 AM
    • 48Posts
    • 7Thanks
    WinWin
    Court Claim PCN
    • #1
    • 23rd Aug 17, 9:50 AM
    Court Claim PCN 23rd Aug 17 at 9:50 AM
    Hi all, newbie here. I have been reading the informative threads here. thank you.

    I have acknowledged receipt of service with MCOL. (Private land PCN) Would like some info in laymens terms re defence on keeper liability or possible other defence avenues. if anyone could direct me or better, private message. thank you
Page 4
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 4th Feb 18, 1:02 AM
    • 53,987 Posts
    • 67,651 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    OK but what about their evidence that the parking fee was 'underpaid'? What did they attach?

    The WS is a completely ludicrous Gladstones template, trotted out in every case with slight tweaks.

    You will need to debunk 'Elliott v Loake' (search the forum for 'Loake' and use 'advanced search' and change it to 'show POSTS' (not threads). Debunk their statement that the keeper has somehow failed by not naming the driver (they don't have to, and why would anyone throw a relative to the parking sharks by naming them as driver, this removing the keeper protection - vague though it is - in Schedule 4?).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 4th Feb 18, 2:27 AM
    • 2,056 Posts
    • 3,655 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Does it have a contract, a site map and pics of the actual signs there - or is it just their interpretation of what signs they thought might be there on a good day?

    Contract would be useful to see
    Idiots please note: If you intend NOT to read the information on the Notice of Allocation and hand a simple win to the knuckle dragging ex-clampers, then don't waste people's time with questions on a claim you'll not defend.
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 5th Feb 18, 8:21 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    Good morning

    Hoping you can take a look at my above link and give me your thoughts.

    Very much appreciated
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 5th Feb 18, 1:05 PM
    • 1,692 Posts
    • 1,906 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You!!!8217;ve not answered any of the questions given to you. Try doing that.
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 5th Feb 18, 6:28 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    when I wrote my last comment, there were no comments loaded when I refreshed. Will have a read now
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 7th Feb 18, 12:24 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    Hi All

    Here is the link to all WS documents I received from Gladstones (including photos, signage, contract, correspondence etc.
    - I never received a reply to my request for further information. In WS they are saying they replied.
    - I also never received their 'Letter before claim' which they have included in their WS

    pix.sfly.com/6cHYDPDk

    Thank you for your help
    Last edited by WinWin; 07-02-2018 at 12:33 AM.
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 7th Feb 18, 12:40 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    also not sure how to set out my WS...any pointers gratefully received
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Feb 18, 12:47 AM
    • 53,987 Posts
    • 67,651 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Examples are in post #2 of the NEWBIES FAQS thread.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 7th Feb 18, 1:23 AM
    • 5,641 Posts
    • 4,339 Thanks
    KeithP
    WinWin, why aren't you posting proper live links?

    You've certainly been here long enough and have plenty of posts to your name.

    Make it easy for others to help you.
    .
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 10th Feb 18, 11:19 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    For all those who have been super helpful, would you mind copying the link into a new window it opens WS documents. (I have no idea why it doesnt post live)
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 10th Feb 18, 11:20 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    https://photos.shutterfly.com/story/id/120205727269
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Feb 18, 2:32 PM
    • 53,987 Posts
    • 67,651 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Look how large the £1 and £8 is. Can't easily discern anything at all about a penalty charge.

    The WS is exactly the same as in all other claims involving this PPC, as you'll know from reading them.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 18th Feb 18, 10:59 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    I wonder if anyone could let me know if this WS is ok please?

    In this Witness statement, the facts and matters stated are true and within my own knowledge, except where indicated otherwise.

    1. The defendant has received no information from the Claimant stating facts around exactly what the alleged 'overstay' or underpayment was.

    2. The Claimant has not complied with the pre-court protocol, as the claimant has not provided any Particulars of Claim or initial information containing the facts to the defendant. In particular, the full details of the contract that it is alleged was broken have not been provided. As no full details of claim were received after Defendants request of these on .........., a full defence was unable to be made. The full particulars were only received by the defendant in the Claimants witness statement.

    3. I'd refer the court to Para 4 on non-compliance and sanction, and I'd also point out
    that there can be no reasonable excuse for the Claimant's failure to follow the Pre-
    action Conduct process, especially bearing in mind that the Claim in being handled by Gladstones who are a firm of solicitors.

    4. As Gladstones are a firm of solicitors whose Directors also run the IPC Trade
    Body and deal with private parking issues every single day of the week there can
    be no excuse for these omissions.

    5. The defendant posted a request for further information to the claimant on ........2017 (Exhibit 1; letter asking for further and detailed information).

    The claimant did not respond.

    6. Whilst I was the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned, there is no evidence of the driver and as this is a shared vehicle it is impossible to recall who might have been driving, therefore puts HX to strict proof that any contract can exist between the Claimant and themselves.

    7. I rely upon the words of barrister and parking expert Lead Adjudicator for PATAS and
    POPLA, Henry Michael Greenslade, where he clarified in the POPLA Annual Report
    2015 in a heading: 'Understanding Keeper Liability') that a private parking operator must never presume that a keeper is the driver. (Exhibit 2; Popla report).

    8. The signage was inadequate to form a contract with the motorist because it is barely
    legible, making it difficult to read. You would need to bend down right in front of it to able to read it. Part E, Schedule 1 of the Code of Practice of the Independent Parking Committee (of which HX is a member), clearly states that; Text should be of such a size and in a font that can be easily read by a motorist having regard to the likely position of the motorist in relation to the sign; As can be seen from the attached photographic evidence (Exhibit 3) this is not the case. Please refer to (Exhibit 4) a copy of the clear and distinct signage used in Beavis v Parking Eye.

    9. The warning signs above and next to the ticket machine are so high up that only a person of above average height would be able to read and they are not visible as you enter into the carpark as they are obstructed by a large bush If you park in the area in the photo evidence you would not see the machine upon driving into the carpark.. (Exhibit 5 & 6; photograph of machine and unclear signage)

    10. The small sign is not visible to anyone entering the carpark as it is obstructed by a large barrier (Exhibit 7).
    11. There are no warning signs upon entering the first carpark to state that such terms apply. A motorist could very easily be led to believe the whole car park is under same rules. (Exhibit 8)
    12. The defendant was a patron of MFA Fantasy bowl during the time of the alleged incident.

    13. The Defendant denies that the driver would have agreed to pay the original demand of £100 to agree to the alleged contract had the terms and conditions of the contract been properly displayed and accessible. The defendant would have had this information to make an informed decision about parking if clearly signposted as in the Parking Eye v Beavis case where the penalty of £85 is clear to see in large print. HX Car Park Management does not have this information in a legible font on its signage.

    14. On the 20th September 2016 another relevant poorly pleaded private parking
    charge claim by Gladstones was struck out by District Judge Cross of St Albans
    County Court without a hearing due to their roboclaim; particulars being
    incoherent, failing to comply with CPR. 16.4 and providing no facts that could give
    rise to any apparent claim in law.

    15. The Claimants are known to be serial issuers of generic claims similar to this one. HM Courts Service have identified over 1000 similar sparse claims. I believe the term for such behaviour is roboclaims and as such is against the public interest.

    Practice Direction 3A which references Civil Procedure Rule 3.4 illustrates this point:

    Where a claim is based upon an agreement by conduct, the particulars of claim must specify the conduct relied on and state by whom, when and where the acts constituting the conduct were done.

    16. The claimant described the charge of £50 as legal fees not contractual costs; CPR.14 does not permit these to be recoverable in the Small Claims Court

    17. The Protection of Freedom Act Para 4(5) states that the maximum sum that may be
    recovered from the keeper is the charge stated on the Notice to Keeper.

    18. HX Car Park Management are not the lawful occupier of the land. I have the
    reasonable belief that they do not have the authority to issue charges on this land in
    their own name and that they have no rights to bring this case.

    I believe that the facts stated in this Witness Statement are true.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Feb 18, 5:10 PM
    • 53,987 Posts
    • 67,651 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Should be in the first person, so not 'the defendant' and not 'I'd refer to' (''I'd'' is slang!):

    You need the usual headings of course = court, claim no, Claimant, Defendant.

    I am the Defendant and in this Witness statement, the facts and matters stated are true and within my own knowledge, except where indicated otherwise.
    1. The defendant has I have received no information from the Claimant stating facts around exactly what the alleged 'overstay' or underpayment relates to, nor how the claimed sum is calculated.
    was.
    3. I'd I wish to refer the court to Paragraph 4 on non-compliance and sanction, and I'd also point out that there can be no reasonable...
    5. The defendant I posted a request for further information to the claimant on ........2017 (Exhibit 1; letter asking for further and detailed information).
    and carry on through, changing 'The Defendant' to ''I'' and I would remove #14 (too old):
    14. On the 20th September 2016 another relevant poorly pleaded private parking charge claim by Gladstones was struck out by District Judge Cross of St Albans County Court without a hearing due to their roboclaim; particulars being incoherent, failing to comply with CPR. 16.4 and providing no facts that could give rise to any apparent claim in law.
    ...and maybe replace it with a paragraph saying that you watched the Parliamentary debate recording from 2nd February 2018* and are aware that IPC parking firms in general were condemned, and Gladstones Solicitors were specifically named and shamed for their conflict of interests, therefore they cannot come to these roboclaims with clean hands. Evidence - transcript from Hansard.


    *...see posts by The Deep or the thread by bargepole from 2nd. Use the debate to show the Judge the level of these claims, in case he/she missed what MPs think of this 'outrageous scam' (Hansard).

    You can use the transcript of the debate too if you like.

    I suggest you also need the Beavis case sign as evidence, to show the difference between a clear and prominent parking charge in the largest lettering, and this sign.

    And I see you have Henry Greenslade's words, but do you also have Schedule 4 as evidence?
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; Yesterday at 1:07 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 19th Feb 18, 10:18 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    thank you very much Coupon-mad.

    I have the Beavis sign and POPLA and POFA reports. Can I print just relevant sections or do I need whole reports? Library printing is getting expensive now.

    I will amend other sections you suggest.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Feb 18, 10:36 AM
    • 16,644 Posts
    • 26,027 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Just print the relevant segments. Otherwise you'll need a low-loader to deliver your WS.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 19th Feb 18, 12:27 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    Umkomaas thank you.

    Do I need to include copy car insurance as proof of insured drivers?
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 19th Feb 18, 12:32 PM
    • 34,500 Posts
    • 18,466 Thanks
    Quentin
    No point - the driver did not need to be covered by the car's insurance!
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 19th Feb 18, 12:37 PM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    Quentin....thank you
    • WinWin
    • By WinWin 20th Feb 18, 9:04 AM
    • 48 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    WinWin
    Coupon-mad
    Have watched the parliamentary link. thank you. having trouble finding the transcript
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