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  • FIRST POST
    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 22nd Aug 17, 5:12 PM
    • 8Posts
    • 1Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    Permit not Visible
    • #1
    • 22nd Aug 17, 5:12 PM
    Permit not Visible 22nd Aug 17 at 5:12 PM
    Hi from a Newbie!

    I have looked through the Newbie sticky and tried searching for a thread for this, but so many come up (300!) that I can't see the wood for the trees.

    My question is - in respect of a charge issued by a private company, what are the grounds for appeal if a permit is issued, displayed on the car, then drops, or is blown, out of sight without the driver's knowledge?

    In the case in point, the PCN describes the contravention as "no valid parking permit on visible display".
    Last edited by Ruff-Diamond; 22-08-2017 at 6:00 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Aug 17, 5:17 PM
    • 16,483 Posts
    • 20,637 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 22nd Aug 17, 5:17 PM
    • #2
    • 22nd Aug 17, 5:17 PM
    there are no "grounds for appeal" on the above "story"

    the grounds for appeal are the usual ones set out in the newbies sticky thread, these will include the following

    SIGNAGE
    AST agreement (primacy of contract)
    NO LANDHOLDER AUTHORITY
    NOT THE SAME AS BEAVIS
    POFA2012 failures or errors
    Code Of Practice errors or failures

    so look at recent 2017 appeals if you have a popla code (BPA members only) and draft a typical tenancy type of appeal where something similar has happened (or just not on display)

    and usually the "driver" would not be dealing with it, only the KEEPER deals with it , staying as KEEPER and never revealing who the driver may have been
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 22nd Aug 17, 5:27 PM
    • 40,462 Posts
    • 80,845 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #3
    • 22nd Aug 17, 5:27 PM
    • #3
    • 22nd Aug 17, 5:27 PM
    What is the name of the PPC please? This will determine which appeal template from the NEWBIES you should use to make the initial appeal, and also what to do next.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

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    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 22nd Aug 17, 6:00 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    • #4
    • 22nd Aug 17, 6:00 PM
    • #4
    • 22nd Aug 17, 6:00 PM
    Thanks - PCN issuer was P4Parking
    • Redx
    • By Redx 22nd Aug 17, 7:22 PM
    • 16,483 Posts
    • 20,637 Thanks
    Redx
    • #5
    • 22nd Aug 17, 7:22 PM
    • #5
    • 22nd Aug 17, 7:22 PM
    BPA AOS member so follow the BPA advice in the NEWBIES sticky thread, post #2
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 22nd Aug 17, 8:48 PM
    • 1,056 Posts
    • 677 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    • #6
    • 22nd Aug 17, 8:48 PM
    • #6
    • 22nd Aug 17, 8:48 PM
    "no valid parking permit on visible display"
    This is in any case easily fabricated by bad lighting or angle.

    So ignore that, and follow all the advice about other ways to challenge it. You don't get 10k "Thanks" by being often wrong.
    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 23rd Aug 17, 10:10 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    • #7
    • 23rd Aug 17, 10:10 AM
    • #7
    • 23rd Aug 17, 10:10 AM
    Great - thanks for your help guys. I'll let you know how I get on.
    • waamo
    • By waamo 23rd Aug 17, 10:12 AM
    • 2,089 Posts
    • 2,495 Thanks
    waamo
    • #8
    • 23rd Aug 17, 10:12 AM
    • #8
    • 23rd Aug 17, 10:12 AM
    This outfit has form for telling huge whoppers in response to appeals so please keep us updated with any replies you get.
    This space for hire.
    • Half_way
    • By Half_way 23rd Aug 17, 10:58 AM
    • 3,830 Posts
    • 5,405 Thanks
    Half_way
    • #9
    • 23rd Aug 17, 10:58 AM
    • #9
    • 23rd Aug 17, 10:58 AM
    why are you displaying a permit?
    is this a residential parking space or similar?
    From the Plain Language Commission:

    "The BPA has surely become one of the most socially dangerous organisations in the UK"
    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 23rd Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    Hi Half Way.

    It was a temporary visitor's permit and the car was in a designated visitor's space within the development.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Aug 17, 3:19 PM
    • 823 Posts
    • 946 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    What does the lease / AST / rental agreeemtn / whatever say about parking, access to communal spaces, right to quiet enjoyment, etc?
    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 23rd Aug 17, 4:20 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    I'll see if I can find out.
    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 24th Aug 17, 12:31 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    Another thought. The concierge passed to me the Development Manager's email address. I was considering emailing him to explain the situation and ask whether he would be able to get the charge cancelled. I was hesitant to do so in case he passed my email on to the PPC and it undermined my claim. Reading through some of the templates, I'm now wondering whether if he did forward my mail and they used it, would this actually strengthen my case?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 24th Aug 17, 12:50 PM
    • 823 Posts
    • 946 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    You say you dont allow them to forward it on to any party, if thats your wish.
    Its worth a go - state this is a crazy situation.
    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 15th Sep 17, 2:23 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    Unsuprisingly, appeal to development manager drew a blank. I'll be raising appeal to issuer today as per advice in Newbies section. I'll update this thread with any developments.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 15th Sep 17, 2:32 PM
    • 6,328 Posts
    • 8,139 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Another thought. The concierge passed to me the Development Manager's email address. I was considering emailing him to explain the situation and ask whether he would be able to get the charge cancelled. I was hesitant to do so in case he passed my email on to the PPC and it undermined my claim. Reading through some of the templates, I'm now wondering whether if he did forward my mail and they used it, would this actually strengthen my case?
    Originally posted by Ruff-Diamond
    Earlier this year there was a case on here where a lady
    parked on land owned by BT and the vermin was employed

    She contacted BT to get the ticket cancelled. BT ignored her
    and then the PPC contacted her by email.
    No permission was given to BT to pass on her data

    She was advised here to point out the data breach to BT

    BT cancelled the ticket
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Ruff-Diamond
    • By Ruff-Diamond 9th Nov 17, 12:21 PM
    • 8 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Ruff-Diamond
    So, predictably, my appeal on the grounds of inadequate signage was denied, so I will now be lodging a POPLA appeal. My appeal did state that a temporary permit had been obtained and a copy was provided.

    Any thoughts on this line of defence:

    The driver spoke to the concierge on arrival and was issued with a temporary parking permit. The permit, which is in my possession, simply states the validity "from" and "to" times and that it is only valid in bays marked "V". It does not state that it must be displayed in the car or that the driver should additionally read the operator's signage. I understand that the concierge advised that the permit should be displayed, but not that the driver should read the signs.

    In these circumstances, why would the driver feel it necessary to seek out the operator's sign and read it? Would it not be reasonable of the driver to assume that the terms of parking are contained on the temporary permit and that, if other terms applied, this should be stated on the permit, or advised verbally?

    I also received an NTK today from TNC Parking services, which I shall ignore while the appeal is ongoing. I have not disclosed the drivers name and have no intention of doing so unless instructed by a court.
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