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  • FIRST POST
    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 20th Aug 17, 10:40 PM
    • 14Posts
    • 1Thanks
    GSHopper
    Britannia PCN Appeal
    • #1
    • 20th Aug 17, 10:40 PM
    Britannia PCN Appeal 20th Aug 17 at 10:40 PM
    Sadly I did not read the Newbies Thread before sending in my appeal to Britannia - they have rejected it and know that I was the driver. Am I sunk?
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Aug 17, 10:59 PM
    • 51,666 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 20th Aug 17, 10:59 PM
    • #2
    • 20th Aug 17, 10:59 PM
    Doubt it, this is only Britannia who are pretty useless at POPLA.

    Show us your POPLA draft. Loads of people win as 'driver' having made the same mistake as you.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 21st Aug 17, 1:32 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    • #3
    • 21st Aug 17, 1:32 PM
    • #3
    • 21st Aug 17, 1:32 PM
    Having read some of the other posts, it is advised not to mention mitigating circumstances. I used that as my first appeal to Britannia - would POPLA use that against me?
    • waamo
    • By waamo 21st Aug 17, 1:42 PM
    • 2,117 Posts
    • 2,531 Thanks
    waamo
    • #4
    • 21st Aug 17, 1:42 PM
    • #4
    • 21st Aug 17, 1:42 PM
    No. Naming the driver is not fatal to an appeal nor are your initial appeal points. A POPLA appeal can differ greatly from an initial appeal and still win.
    This space for hire.
    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 25th Aug 17, 1:31 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    • #5
    • 25th Aug 17, 1:31 PM
    • #5
    • 25th Aug 17, 1:31 PM
    I've drafted a POPLA appeal, and as far as I can see the point about Landowner Authority seems to be the only one relevant as I had a look at the signage in the car park (Southampton Retail) and they are fairly clear and legible.

    "POPLA Appeal


    I am writing to you to lodge a formal appeal against a parking charge notice issued to the vehicle in question. I contend that I am not liable for this parking charge on the basis of the below points:

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement"
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 25th Aug 17, 1:55 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    • #6
    • 25th Aug 17, 1:55 PM
    • #6
    • 25th Aug 17, 1:55 PM
    Really? They have the charge in massive lettering similar to the Beavis case?
    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 25th Aug 17, 5:08 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    • #7
    • 25th Aug 17, 5:08 PM
    • #7
    • 25th Aug 17, 5:08 PM
    No not massive - so I can include the signage paragraphs. .......
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 26th Aug 17, 12:48 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 26th Aug 17, 12:48 AM
    • #8
    • 26th Aug 17, 12:48 AM
    Obviously. That's what I wrote it for! No-one misses out criticising the signs, no idea why you thought 'having signs up' was a reason not to point out the writing is tiny and the charge buried in small print!

    What was the alleged contravention?

    If it was alleged overstay at Waitrose for example, I've seen a laughable set of photos from Britannia, where both photos were taken at the end, none at the start of parking...so there was NO evidence of any overstay at all. How we laughed (and of course, the friend won at POPLA with my help, and there were no signs up but that's another story).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 30th Aug 17, 12:44 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    • #9
    • 30th Aug 17, 12:44 PM
    • #9
    • 30th Aug 17, 12:44 PM
    It was an overstay - the parking ticket was for an hour and the PCN was issued 17 mins after. The parking ticket did show the time the ticket was purchased.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Aug 17, 10:22 PM
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    Coupon-mad
    In fact I would throw in 'no keeper liability' anyway and explain the NTK was non-POFA (if they issued any NTK at all) even if you appealed as driver. Chuck it all at Britannia anyway, and the usual template about the 'individual appellant' as point #2. Then landowner authority, then signage (4 appeal points, all templates already written).

    Let Britannia prove you said who was driving, let them prove their case.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 1st Sep 17, 5:05 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    Sorry to be thick, but where's the template about "individual appellant"? Is it the one about the operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing....?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 1st Sep 17, 9:03 PM
    • 51,666 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Yep, it is intended to always follow a point about 'no keeper liability'.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 2nd Sep 17, 1:37 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    This is the draft of my appeal. Any comments gratefully received!

    "I am writing to you as the registered keeper and would be grateful if you would please consider my appeal for the following reasons.

    1. Letter from Britannia Parking attached photos of the vehicle but it does not show the registration number.
    2. As indicated in my letter to Britannia Parking, my daughter was attending to her baby who was unwell, and she was also breastfeeding at the time. My appeal to Britannia was to ask for understanding, and not to be discriminated against on this occasion."

    Then I have included the paragraphs about NTK, Landowner, and signage....
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 2nd Sep 17, 7:45 PM
    • 51,666 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes, with those 5 points it should win.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 29th Sep 17, 3:41 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    I have now received Britannia's response to my appeal. POPLA has advised that I have 7 days to comment if I wish to.
    Britannia has sent lots of extra photos of the car park, including the notices for blue badge holders which of course do not apply to me.
    Interestingly, Britannia has included the NTK in with their documents which I have not actually received from them.
    They have also attached a redacted landowner's agreement.
    Should I make any further comments?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 29th Sep 17, 3:48 PM
    • 16,895 Posts
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    Redx
    yes, you should point out anything you find in their evidence pack that is in your favour

    redacted contracts
    unsigned contracts
    past their "sell by" date , so out of date
    signage issues
    photo issues
    any NTK issues
    BPA CoP failures
    POFA2012 failures

    besically , pick apart their evidence pack and highlight anything they fail on that bolsters your own appeal

    see previous POPLA REBUTTALS on here to see what others have written too

    ie:- this is your chance to comment on their evidence pack (this is the first time you have seen it), they have already commented on your defence
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Sep 17, 5:31 PM
    • 51,666 Posts
    • 65,325 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Interestingly, Britannia has included the NTK in with their documents which I have not actually received from them.
    If you right click on the NTK, can you see when that document was edited/created? I wonder if it's mocked up.

    Should I make any further comments?
    ALWAYS comment briefly on all holes you see within the evidence (dates on signage photos, date on landowner document, redacted contract, no name of landowner/unreadable signatures etc).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 3rd Oct 17, 12:16 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    Couldn't see if the NTK was a mock up. It was dated 8/8/17 which was two and half weeks after my initial letter to them.
    The redacted Landowners authority is dated 15 Jan2016. The name has been blanked out. Is the authority the agreement?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 3rd Oct 17, 1:24 PM
    • 51,666 Posts
    • 65,325 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The redacted Landowners authority is dated 15 Jan2016. The name has been blanked out. Is the authority the agreement?
    Yes, pick on that and say in your comments to POPLA, urgently, that the signatory is redacted so it's not evidenced that the landowner has authorised the regime, and there is no expiry date for the 'service' which initially in most cases expires after 12 months.

    Also state that:

    Whilst no NTK was in fact ever served, the version they've shown/mocked up for POPLA is non-POFA anyway. Explain why (the 28 days period in the warning about 'keeper liability' is almost certainly NOT what Schedule 4 says in 8(2)f - you can check for yourself). As such, the keeper - who was not the driver - cannot be held liable.

    And add that Britannia Parking's photos of the vehicle do not show the registration number (if that is still true, from the evidence).

    And that the signage evidence doesn't show that full terms were readable near the car.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • GSHopper
    • By GSHopper 9th Oct 17, 12:14 PM
    • 14 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    GSHopper
    Sorry but despite all the help I got, I am afraid my POPLA appeal was unsuccessful
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