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  • FIRST POST
    • CountryKerry
    • By CountryKerry 20th Aug 17, 2:12 PM
    • 12Posts
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    CountryKerry
    Appeal can't be looked at until driver is named
    • #1
    • 20th Aug 17, 2:12 PM
    Appeal can't be looked at until driver is named 20th Aug 17 at 2:12 PM
    Hey there,

    Just a quick question about P4 Parking. A windscreen PCN was placed on my car on 8/7/17. My car was parked in a bay and the driver was sourcing a visitors permit from the flat being visited (as dictated by the landowner).

    Anyhow, ticket issued. An online appeal was sent in by myself as registered keeper on day 27 (3/8/17). It followed a template from this forum (so thank you) and made note that the driver had been parked for two minutes, and was actually getting the visitors permit to place in the vehicle at the time.

    On 16/8/17 I received an email (just seen today as it went to the spam folder) stating they; "cannot accept the appeal sent in as the driver's identity was not provided". The letter then states, in bold (angry!), "According to BPA, section 9.2, the driver must USE THE APPEALS PROCEDURES IN AN HONEST WAY".

    It then follows on; "if we have not been informed of the drivers details within seven days we will not accept your appeal and pursue you for the full charge".

    So where do I stand? They will not accept my appeals (and thus grant me a Popla code) until I tell them the driver... . Should I do anything or just shred their letters on arrival?
    Last edited by CountryKerry; 20-08-2017 at 2:56 PM.
Page 2
    • Redx
    • By Redx 30th Aug 17, 7:26 PM
    • 15,486 Posts
    • 19,571 Thanks
    Redx
    no the NTK wont contain popla codes

    it is the official notice sent to a keeper , so the process starts all over again against the keeper and not the driver, so if an NTK arrives it needs appealing , the PPC then has 35 days to cancel or issue a popla code , to the keeper (as the driver is no longer involved)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 31st Aug 17, 1:35 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Reply to both the BPA and DVLA again, reiterating this and attaching the proof:
    So, the BPA is asking for the correspondence that shows a violation of the code of practice. I assume it is this specific part;

    "if we have not been informed of the drivers details within seven days we will not accept your appeal and pursue you for the full charge"
    State that the words: ''we will not accept your appeal'' without the driver's details, is misleading at best and in no way suggests that they will consider the appeal and issue a POPLA code, which it should make clear. At the moment, you are still completely in the dark as to whether this AOS member is considering the keeper's appeal at all.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • CountryKerry
    • By CountryKerry 2nd Sep 17, 12:06 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    CountryKerry
    No NTK received as of today, and the deadline was yesterday. I sent myself a letter to my old address on Thursday, 1st class, and it arrived at my new address today after being redirected.

    So I assume they have no standing whatsoever now, they don't know who was driving, and, can't pursue the keeper?

    That said; they seem dodgy already so can they claim they sent it, and it was just lost in the post?
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 2nd Sep 17, 12:14 PM
    • 5,936 Posts
    • 7,639 Thanks
    beamerguy
    No NTK received as of today, and the deadline was yesterday. I sent myself a letter to my old address on Thursday, 1st class, and it arrived at my new address today after being redirected.

    So I assume they have no standing whatsoever now, they don't know who was driving, and, can't pursue the keeper?

    That said; they seem dodgy already so can they claim they sent it, and it was just lost in the post?
    Originally posted by CountryKerry
    For the sake of postal delays, wait until tuesday
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • CountryKerry
    • By CountryKerry 5th Sep 17, 10:30 AM
    • 12 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    CountryKerry
    Post has arrived... and... no NtK!

    BPA also replied;

    Thank you for your reply.

    When a Notice to Driver is affixed to a vehicle, the driver of the vehicle has 28 days to pay or appeal the Charge. At this stage, the operator may request the name and serviceable address for the driver should an appeal be received not supplying this information in the first instance.

    If no appeal (containing a name and serviceable address for the driver) or payment is received by the operator within 28 days, the operator may request the vehicle Keeper details from the DVLA, and issue a Notice to Keeper.

    As per the above, we are unable to advise that there has been a breach of the Code in this instance and as such we are unfortunately unable to assist you further.


    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 5th Sep 17, 5:37 PM
    • 49,944 Posts
    • 63,352 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Wait till this Thursday, then if no rejection letter/POPLA code has arrived, then their 35 days is up and so I would then reply to the BPA:



    Dear Emma-Louise/Thomas/Joanne (or whoever fobbed you off)!

    Thankyou for your reply, which - typically, going by other BPA replies to complaints about private parking firms, that are in the public domain recently - fails to address the issue and misleads me with erroneous excuses. The BPA should be ashamed of the industry you prop up, who have been getting steadily worse and more aggressive, since clamping was banned, not better.

    Anyway, regarding my formal complaint, this matter is NOT resolved.

    To reiterate, your AOS member has refused to entertain an appeal from the keeper AT ALL and the requisite 35 days has now passed for them to send me a POPLA code. Now please take the action you should have done earlier, and kindly stop suggesting that an AOS member can actually 'refuse to accept' (i.e. the implication being, refuse to consider at all) a keeper's appeal.

    I remind you that on 16/8/17 their email said quite rudely, that they:

    "cannot accept the appeal sent in as the driver's identity was not provided".

    The letter then states, in bold (angrily and unprofessionally), "According to BPA, section 9.2, the driver must USE THE APPEALS PROCEDURES IN AN HONEST WAY".

    How dare they, and how dare you support this unprofessional conduct?

    I have copied in Mr Dunford at the DVLA, who along with your colleague Steve Clark, has recently ordered an investigation regarding another case where an AOS member has tried to pretend a keeper cannot appeal. You may not have been in the BPA in 2012 when the POFA came in but Mr Clark was, and is aware that 'keeper liability' only came into play (well after 1st October 2012) once the Government was satisfied that an independent appeals system for keepers was in place.

    AOS members were also subsequently reminded by Mr Clark and Mr Dunford in a joint communication, that appeal responses were not allowed to say that an appeal depends upon the driver being named. Such misinformation was identified in 2013 as a 'serious breach' of the Code of Practice. Nothing has changed.

    You are wrong to add the bit shown in brackets; it seems that you have been listening to the wrong side for too long, or the BPA team requires refresher training on this specific point. It is embarrassing that such erroneous replies as this are being sent to the general public by the BPA:

    ''If no appeal (containing a name and serviceable address for the driver) or payment is received by the operator within 28 days, the operator may request the vehicle Keeper details from the DVLA, and issue a Notice to Keeper.''

    You are incorrect and misleading in your reply.

    This is the same ''significant breach'' as it always was, in any case where an AOS member said in 2012, or in 2017, that considering an appeal was dependent upon the driver being named. That was not allowed then, and is not allowed now.

    Kindly open an investigation into the matter - Mr Clark and Mr Dunford are now copied in.

    yours,

    you


    Emails to copy in this time:

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    and

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk

    and

    copy in your MP, or forward a copy of the email trail and explain the issue!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 05-09-2017 at 5:40 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • CountryKerry
    • By CountryKerry 12th Sep 17, 2:03 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    CountryKerry
    Thank you again for all your replies. No notice to keeper has been received.

    I telephoned P4 Parking today, using the 01 number from say no to 0870. I spoke to control operator 993 - she was absolutely rude and disgusting and has made me genuinely angry. I will be taking this so far now I will not stop until P4 Parking is shut down.

    The lady has said P4 Parking will not issue a notice to the keeper - my details will be passed to a debt collection company who will issue the notice to the keeper at a later date. What do I need to do now? I will re submit a complaint to the DVLA about a data protection breach.

    Because I have not received the NtK, what do I need to do? I do not want to hang around waiting for something to happen. I want to take P4 Parking to court for everything they have.

    I have also reiterated to BPA my complaint and await a response.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Sep 17, 2:20 PM
    • 5,936 Posts
    • 7,639 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Thank you again for all your replies. No notice to keeper has been received.

    I telephoned P4 Parking today, using the 01 number from say no to 0870. I spoke to control operator 993 - she was absolutely rude and disgusting and has made me genuinely angry. I will be taking this so far now I will not stop until P4 Parking is shut down.

    The lady has said P4 Parking will not issue a notice to the keeper - my details will be passed to a debt collection company who will issue the notice to the keeper at a later date. What do I need to do now? I will re submit a complaint to the DVLA about a data protection breach.

    Because I have not received the NtK, what do I need to do? I do not want to hang around waiting for something to happen. I want to take P4 Parking to court for everything they have.

    I have also reiterated to BPA my complaint and await a response.
    Originally posted by CountryKerry
    Sounds like you have been talking to the "tea girl" who has
    no knowledge whatsoever.
    What a terrible liability this tea girl is for P4
    But don't sack her P4, the more idiots around the better

    Debt Collectors don't issue NtK's they just waste their time
    sending stupid scary letters to extort money

    For this rubbish, the BPA and the DVLA must sanction them
    as they are not fit for purpose and a danger to the motorist
    Last edited by beamerguy; 12-09-2017 at 2:43 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • CountryKerry
    • By CountryKerry 12th Sep 17, 5:21 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    CountryKerry
    Well I'm just so angry at them after that phone call. I phoned them back again - this time I recorded the call... . They have said, on record, "that a Notice to Keeper will be sent out soon (so an admission it hasn't been sent within 56 days) and that I really should feel guilty and unhappy about my life and actions as I have broken the law... by parking against the law".

    I am also very much in an email war with the landowner as well now since P4 have passed my details onto another company without my consent. Is this a data protection breach?

    And lastly, I am writing an even stronger worded email to the BPA.

    I vow I am going to take this PPC to court for such a large sum - they will never operate ever again.
    • Grimble
    • By Grimble 12th Sep 17, 5:26 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 471 Thanks
    Grimble
    Put your phone away, may not be evidence in court, did you tell them you are recording the call?
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 12th Sep 17, 5:32 PM
    • 455 Posts
    • 849 Thanks
    safarmuk
    I am also very much in an email war with the landowner as well now since P4 have passed my details onto another company without my consent. Is this a data protection breach?
    What other company have P4 passed your details onto and for what reason? I am presuming they have your details as you appealed to them as the RK basis the NTD that was left on your car?

    To start a DPA claim the best piece of evidence is to get an upheld complaint from the ICO (this can take anywhere between 1 and 4 months to come through though). But as I said above whether they will uphold the complaint depends on the details.

    Additionally I suspect secret recordings are not admissible in court ...
    Last edited by safarmuk; 12-09-2017 at 5:38 PM.
    • CountryKerry
    • By CountryKerry 12th Sep 17, 5:40 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    CountryKerry
    What other company have P4 passed your details onto and for what reason? I am presuming they have your details as you appealed to them as the RK basis the NTD that was left on your car?

    Additionally I suspect secret recordings are not admissible in court ...
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    P4 have passed my details onto a debt collection company - or at least they say they have. I have not received an NtK or POPLA code at this point. They have my details as RK from my admission in the appeal of the NTD, yes. I also think they have my details from the DVLA as they claim to have begun requesting them on the 24/8/17.

    Lastly, I was under the impression I can record calls for my own personal use. I understand fully I cannot use these calls in court, but at least I know what was clearly said. Additionally, I did actually say I was recorded the call to the first person I spoke to. The response was "so are we".
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 12th Sep 17, 5:49 PM
    • 455 Posts
    • 849 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Additionally, I did actually say I was recorded the call to the first person I spoke to. The response was "so are we"
    Then you can use it. Very good.

    P4 have passed my details onto a debt collection company - or at least they say they have. I have not received an NtK or POPLA code at this point. They have my details as RK from my admission in the appeal of the NTD, yes. I also think they have my details from the DVLA as they claim to have begun requesting them on the 24/8/17.
    I think first you need to start gathering all the information you will need to do whatever you end up doing. I'd start by confirming that they have accessed your DVLA data, you can do this by emailing the DVLA and asking them to provide you with information on whom has accessed your data between two dates.

    The fact is they have your data because you gave it to them. As a result I don't see how you can make a DPA claim against them as a result of this. The Debt Collection Agency will be their standard company who they contract the "scary letters" phase of this charade out to.

    To be honest if you have not named the driver and they have not issued a NtK and therefore are not POFA compliant then they really have little to go on to make a claim against you (however the computer that spews the claims out won't bother checking that if you end up in the queue). I would follow Coupon-Mads advice, wait until the deadline has properly passed ...

    How are you getting on with the landowner?
    Last edited by safarmuk; 12-09-2017 at 5:53 PM.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 12th Sep 17, 6:05 PM
    • 5,936 Posts
    • 7,639 Thanks
    beamerguy
    Well I'm just so angry at them after that phone call. I phoned them back again - this time I recorded the call... . They have said, on record, "that a Notice to Keeper will be sent out soon (so an admission it hasn't been sent within 56 days) and that I really should feel guilty and unhappy about my life and actions as I have broken the law... by parking against the law".

    I am also very much in an email war with the landowner as well now since P4 have passed my details onto another company without my consent. Is this a data protection breach?
    Originally posted by CountryKerry
    It is interesting to note that P4 are clueless ???
    Was it the tea girl again ??

    Idiots to say you have broken the law ???

    Are you sure you are talking to P4 and not some
    imbecile from the funny farm. I guess both will apply

    Do your worst
    Last edited by beamerguy; 12-09-2017 at 6:11 PM.
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • CountryKerry
    • By CountryKerry 12th Sep 17, 11:52 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    CountryKerry
    Then you can use it. Very good.
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    Can I though? I told the first person I was recording the call - it was later transferred to someone else and I never informed them... despite it being in the same call could this cause problems?

    Was it the tea girl again ??
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    Oh yes. She identified as "head of the PPC control area". She's made a few mistakes on the phone now - so I really hope they do not fire her! (Yet).

    The fact is they have your data because you gave it to them. As a result I don't see how you can make a DPA claim against them as a result of this. The Debt Collection Agency will be their standard company who they contract the "scary letters" phase of this charade out to..
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    That is very true but I made it clear in my original appeal I was only providing my data for use in the original appeal. They have given it on to a debt company - without consent.

    Also, coupon-mad's post was actually last week, and all liability expired last Thursday. I have not named the driver to them so whilst I'm not responsible - I do not want to wait 9 months for a letter before action. I'm actually so pi**ed off with them, I'm going to start researching other cases and really take them to the cleaners over this.

    The landowner situation is a mess. The new person has been removed from his role (fired I assume), and the new person has openly confessed "I've got more than a hundred complaints to do with parking to deal with before yours, I am truly sorry". I'm currently preparing a letter to everyone in our flats - and other estates throughout London managed by the same landowner - with the intention of forming a group. I hope you can tell I'm really REALLY pi**ed off!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 13th Sep 17, 12:06 AM
    • 49,944 Posts
    • 63,352 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Well I'm just so angry at them after that phone call. I phoned them back again - this time I recorded the call... . They have said, on record, "that a Notice to Keeper will be sent out soon (so an admission it hasn't been sent within 56 days) and that I really should feel guilty and unhappy about my life and actions as I have broken the law... by parking against the law".

    I am also very much in an email war with the landowner as well now since P4 have passed my details onto another company without my consent. Is this a data protection breach?

    And lastly, I am writing an even stronger worded email to the BPA.
    Originally posted by CountryKerry
    As others have said, make sure you also copy in David Dunford at the DVLA and can you also send them the recording of the phone call (tell them that P4Parking were made aware you were recording it and what they said).

    The bit in red is horrendous.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 13th Sep 17, 8:28 AM
    • 5,936 Posts
    • 7,639 Thanks
    beamerguy
    CountryKerry;73117571]Can I though? I told the first person I was recording the call - it was later transferred to someone else and I never informed them... despite it being in the same call could this cause problems?

    You told a representative of P4 what you were doing and in return
    they said they were recording as well.
    Type out a script of the call offering actual proof of the
    recording should it be disputed

    Oh yes. She identified as "head of the PPC control area". She's made a few mistakes on the phone now - so I really hope they do not fire her! (Yet).


    She sounds like an utterly stupid person who is now
    causing her employer a great deal of hassle
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 13th Sep 17, 10:18 AM
    • 1,055 Posts
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Just want to understand a couple of facts:
    1. your car was being driven by a visitor, not you. Other than outing the driver, can you prove that you were not driving? Eg is there evidence that you were elsewhere or that you have another car that you drive, or that you are not on the insurance for the car, or something like that?
    2. Was the visitor correctly parked? ie in a visitor space, or in the tenant's space with their permission?
    3. Are you the tenant of the flat, or the leasehold owner? this is relevant to what remedies you might have of your own against the landlord/freeholder.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 13th Sep 17, 10:23 AM
    • 1,055 Posts
    • 1,834 Thanks
    Loadsofchildren123
    On the evidence point, I think if you've told someone you are recording you can use it. It is surreptitious recordings that can't be used. Plus if they said they were recording it, ask for their recording of it (plus the previous call).


    If it can't be used and they won't disclose their recording, the court will accept "contemporaneous evidence" of things like the content of phone calls. So what you do is write down what is being said, either at the same time, or immediately afterwards, in as much detail as you can. If they say something really bad, ask them to repeat it, and make a note of this too. If it is something really, really bad, I'd actually say "I'm making a note of this. Can I just read out what you just said and ask you to confirm it" and make a note of this too, and their answer. When you produce your note and say that it was made during or immediately after the call(s) then the court will give it greater weight, as contemporaneous evidence, than it would if it was a note produced weeks later, when your memory has faded. Also, the court is more likely to favour your version of the call unless the PPC produces a WS from, and in court, the person you actually spoke to, to deny your version.


    Press them for a copy of the recording they have of both calls (but you'll need to say what time/date it was).
    • safarmuk
    • By safarmuk 13th Sep 17, 10:58 AM
    • 455 Posts
    • 849 Thanks
    safarmuk
    Then you can use it. Very good.
    Originally posted by safarmuk
    ”Can I though? I told the first person I was recording the call - it was later transferred to someone else and I never informed them... despite it being in the same call could this cause problems?
    As has been mentioned, you were clear up front with the first representative. It's arguable if it is the first representatives responsibility to tell the second representative. I would say you were clear and told them and the recording is not surreptitious ... but really only a court can decide on that, everything else is an opinion.

    That is very true but I made it clear in my original appeal I was only providing my data for use in the original appeal. They have given it on to a debt company - without consent.
    They claim they have ... wait till you get a letter from the Debt Collection Agency first, it will be your evidence that the data has been passed on. Again as you gave your data to them its a tricky one, but lets keep it on the table.

    As others have said, make sure you also copy in David Dunford at the DVLA and can you also send them the recording of the phone call (tell them that P4Parking were made aware you were recording it and what they said).
    As said before - and also by others - get in touch with the DVLA and find out if your Registered Keeper data has been accessed and as C-M says you can forward that recording with your complaint to David Dunsford.

    The landowner situation is a mess. The new person has been removed from his role (fired I assume), and the new person has openly confessed "I've got more than a hundred complaints to do with parking to deal with before yours, I am truly sorry". I'm currently preparing a letter to everyone in our flats - and other estates throughout London managed by the same landowner - with the intention of forming a group. I hope you can tell I'm really REALLY pi**ed off!
    On your letter why don't you suggest everyone joins a Facebook Group (e.g. "Residents of XYZ") for which you are the admin ... this will be a far more effective way for people to communicate in a timely and easy manner as opposed to letters and meetings.
    Regarding the landowner, I am curious who it is, much of the freehold of estates around London and the Home Counties trace back to a vast number of Companies who share the same three Directors. Generally they all use a company called Estates and Management to collect Ground Rent - is this who collects your Ground Rent by any chance? If so then you are in the same group as many other posters on this forum (including Daniel_san),

    I also note you are talking to the landowner ... who is the Management Agent and have you contacted them as well as they would be the people who contracted the PPC.
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