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    • MSE Megan F
    • By MSE Megan F 17th Aug 17, 5:17 PM
    • 138Posts
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    MSE Megan F
    0 WOW
    MSE News: Paying by card on holiday? Here's why you should keep hold of the terminal
    • #1
    • 17th Aug 17, 5:17 PM
    0 WOW
    MSE News: Paying by card on holiday? Here's why you should keep hold of the terminal 17th Aug 17 at 5:17 PM
    Holidaymakers paying by card are being hit with hideous exchange rates because some payment terminals allow foreign shops, hotels and restaurants to select which currency to charge in AFTER they've entered their PIN, a MoneySavingExpert.com investigation reveals...
    Read the full story:
    'Paying by card on holiday? Here's why you should keep hold of the payment terminal AFTER you've entered your PIN'

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Page 2
    • PeacefulWaters
    • By PeacefulWaters 23rd Aug 17, 12:10 PM
    • 6,841 Posts
    • 8,428 Thanks
    PeacefulWaters
    Nationwide works for its members !
    Originally posted by Dewpoint
    Or its well paid executives.
    • Jannibee
    • By Jannibee 23rd Aug 17, 3:04 PM
    • 1 Posts
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    Jannibee
    Another one to beware of is Ryanair. If you try to book a one way flight priced in euros the site changes the total into pounds AFTER you´ve entered your card details. Their online help assistant could not help. Eventually I found a little box to untick if you did not want their DCC, but it is not at all obvious.
    • Ptpole
    • By Ptpole 23rd Aug 17, 5:46 PM
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    Ptpole
    Holiday card rip off
    I'm surprised that this has only just been reported This problem has been common in Poland for at least the last four years. I use my card in Poland every year and every year I have had to complain to master card about this rip off practice by petrol stations and restaurant. The worst place that I know of, is resturants in Krakow town centre. I specifically asked to pay in Polish Złoty but when I entered my pin I held onto the card reader but I did not even get a choice the payment was automatically completed in pounds when I complained they said it's all automatic and nothing they could do. When I got back I complained to master card, I told them the address of the restaurant, they did refunded the difference but claimed they could do nothing about it. In August this year I paid for a stay in the Arkas hotel near Opole in Poland. I told the receptionist that I wanted to pay in Złoty they said yes, I entered my pin and again the card reader processed the payment in pounds with no choice. They did cancel the payment but then had to go on line to find out how to reconfigure the reader so that a choice was given. I then paid in Polish Złoty. The difference was £36
    • Schofip
    • By Schofip 23rd Aug 17, 8:31 PM
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    Schofip
    It is not just credit cards doing this sort of thing. I recently booked a holiday accommodation on Booking.com. The accommodation was in France and the price quoted was in pounds stirling so I paid with my Capitalone credit card. When my credit card statement arrived it turned out booking.com had actually charged me in the Euro equivalent price making it a foreign money transaction which added a 3% transaction cost of £15. Nowhere did it state that I would be charged in euros. As the price was quoted in Stirling I assumed booking.com had done the conversion from Euros. Annoyed as I could have used my Halifax Clarity card if I had known. Wasn't lying down so contacted booking .com and got them to refund the £15.
    Last edited by Schofip; 23-08-2017 at 8:32 PM. Reason: Typo
    • MattW93
    • By MattW93 23rd Aug 17, 11:51 PM
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    MattW93
    Both Mastercard and Visa should clamp down on this fraudulent abuse of DCC by unscrupulous banks and merchants who access their platforms. If banks are supplying merchants with equipment that can be configured to effectively change a transaction after it has been authorised then they should be fined or denied access to the MasterCard / Visa platforms. Similarly, merchants who habitually practice this abuse should suffer chargebacks on all transactions where they have changed the currency after the PIN has been entered. Surely it is within the capability of Mastercard and Visa to change their processing algorithms to identify and block these transactions.

    I read an article a while back that claimed Amex does not allow DCC on its platform. If this is true, maybe one solution is to use Amex for hotel and car rental payments instead of Mastercard or Visa.
    • hadenoughapologies
    • By hadenoughapologies 24th Aug 17, 7:08 AM
    • 5 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    hadenoughapologies
    No, it won't help
    Thanks eDicky wont go down that route then.
    Use my credit cards and cash then as before. If it isnt broke dont fix it
    • vintner55
    • By vintner55 24th Aug 17, 9:13 AM
    • 60 Posts
    • 46 Thanks
    vintner55
    We had this problem in India. I hadn't heard about it before so was surprised the first time it happened. After that I made a big deal every time of insisting that I wanted to pay in rupees and noticed that on some occasions they took away the card reader and brought out a different one. I presume one was set up for DCC and one wasn't. Even so I still got caught out, perhaps by the language barrier or perhaps by deliberate misunderstanding. The common explanation was that tourists "preferred" to pay in their own currency.
    • avqs43
    • By avqs43 24th Aug 17, 10:53 AM
    • 26 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    avqs43
    Supermarket
    I was caught out in a supermarket in Fuerteventura. I specifically asked in Spanish to pay in Euros and, as has already been said, I entered my PIN and passed the terminal back. It was only when I returned to the hotel that I looked at the till receipt and discovered that I had been charged in pounds. Fortunately, the difference was less than a pound, but I will know for next time.

    DCC has been a problem for years. I had a Nationwide card that I used in 2005 and this was the first time I encountered DCC.

    It is when you have been to the same place often and have had no problems that you let your guard down. I will certainly take the advice of others and keep hold of the terminal until the end of the transaction.
    • firefox1956
    • By firefox1956 24th Aug 17, 6:56 PM
    • 1,218 Posts
    • 676 Thanks
    firefox1956
    We had this problem in India. I hadn't heard about it before so was surprised the first time it happened. After that I made a big deal every time of insisting that I wanted to pay in rupees and noticed that on some occasions they took away the card reader and brought out a different one. I presume one was set up for DCC and one wasn't. Even so I still got caught out, perhaps by the language barrier or perhaps by deliberate misunderstanding. The common explanation was that tourists "preferred" to pay in their own currency.
    Originally posted by vintner55
    This happens in Spain.
    Some retailers, & small ones at that, have 3, 4 or 5 credit card terminals on or under the counter !!
    • Roger1
    • By Roger1 25th Aug 17, 10:59 AM
    • 1,283 Posts
    • 561 Thanks
    Roger1
    The thread is entitled "Paying by card on holiday" isn't it.
    Originally posted by Dewpoint
    'MSE News: Paying by card on holiday? Here's why you should keep hold of the terminal'
    • adriansaggers
    • By adriansaggers 30th Aug 17, 12:38 PM
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    adriansaggers
    I had an unpalatable experience at a branch of Cafe & Tapas in Madrid. I kept hold of the cash machine but still I was charged in sterling. I asked for the transaction to be voided but the trader refused. To add insult to injury the receipt from Comercia Global Payments had a declaration printed on it saying 'I accept that I have been offered a choice of currencies for payment etc'. The staff at the outlet said they were acting under instructions and I should make a complaint on their website if I was not happy. Guess where we I didn't eat anymore in Madrid!
    • firefox1956
    • By firefox1956 30th Aug 17, 1:29 PM
    • 1,218 Posts
    • 676 Thanks
    firefox1956
    I had an unpalatable experience at a branch of Cafe & Tapas in Madrid. I kept hold of the cash machine but still I was charged in sterling. I asked for the transaction to be voided but the trader refused. To add insult to injury the receipt from Comercia Global Payments had a declaration printed on it saying 'I accept that I have been offered a choice of currencies for payment etc'. The staff at the outlet said they were acting under instructions and I should make a complaint on their website if I was not happy. Guess where we I didn't eat anymore in Madrid!
    Originally posted by adriansaggers
    Complain to your card issuer & they should refund you the difference.
    • NFH
    • By NFH 31st Aug 17, 8:43 AM
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    NFH
    Last year my girlfriend paid a restaurant bill of EUR 26.50 in La Linea in Spain from the EUR balance on her Revolut card. After she had authorised EUR 26.50 to be charged to her card by entering her PIN and handed the card terminal back to the waiter, a message appeared on the terminal asking whether she instead wished to pay GBP 23.61 (which was 3.3% more) - with "yes" and "no" options. As the waiter was holding the card terminal, she and I clearly told the waiter "no" twice and that she wished to pay in EUR. The waiter ignored our instruction and disingenuously pressed "yes", causing her card to be charged GBP 23.61 without her authorisation. Although the amount was small, the principle of Spanish merchants scamming non-Eurozone tourists by 3.3% is not one that we wished to support. Therefore we insisted that the merchant reverse the unauthorised transaction. First an assistant manager came to speak to us, who showed us the receipt stating that my girlfriend had agreed to be charged in GBP (whereas it was the waiter who had agreed to this, not my girlfriend). She said that they didn't know how to reverse the transaction, so I suggested that they give us GBP cash. After all, it was they, not us, who decided to transact in GBP, and my girlfriend isn't even from the UK. She said that they didn't have any GBP cash, so I told her she should go to Gibraltar (the border being only half a mile away) and get some. I told her very clearly and audibly that what the waiter had done was dishonest, at which point other diners started to take an interest. Eventually the manager came out, who refunded GBP 23.61 to my girlfriend's Revolut card (which took a couple of days to appear on her Revolut account unlike the original charge which was instant). She paid the EUR 26.50 again, processed correctly this time. It took almost half an hour, but we really wanted to make the restaurant think twice before scamming any future customers.

    DCC-enabled card terminals use the card's IIN/BIN (issuer identification number, the first 6 digits of the card number) to detect the card's country of issue. Card terminals cannot detect the currency of the card or of its underlying account, only its country of issue, but an assumption is made that the card's currency is the currency in the card's country of issue (a false assumption in the case of a UK-issued card on a EUR account). Revolut supports holding balances in EUR, USD, GBP, JPY, CHF, SEK, DKK, NOK, PLN, HUF, RON, TRY, ILS, CAD, AUD, NZD, HKD, SGD, ZAR, MAD, QAR, AED, THB and INR, so the country of issue should be an irrelevance. I notice that Revolut's recently-issued cards have an IIN showing that the country of issue is Romania, as opposed to the UK for its earlier cards, which should curtail dynamic currency conversion for its customers, given that RON is not a currency to which DCC is commonly carried out. The DCC scammers mostly target currencies with global 24x5 liquidity.

    Many years ago, I used a Visa debit card on a EUR-denominated Jersey bank account, on which I first experienced DCC in 2002, in both Ireland and Spain. But now I never experience DCC in the Eurozone, as I use a UK-issued EUR-denominated American Express card. American Express doesn't allow DCC. If a merchant doesn't accept Amex, then I use a Visa debit card on my German bank account.

    I urge everyone who experiences DCC, no matter how small the amount, to kick up a big fuss and overtly accuse the merchant of dishonesty. Where the currency and amount are changed after authorisation, it is fraud. The amount might be small in individual cases, but the big picture is an enormous scam, facilitated only because many consumers can't be bothered to complain about small amounts.
    • NFH
    • By NFH 31st Aug 17, 12:41 PM
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    NFH
    The MSE article says "European law states the currency that customers are charged in must be agreed before the transaction, and if currency conversion is offered the customer must know all charges and the exchange rate beforehand too".

    I've found what I believe is the legislation that MSE is referring to. Article 49 of Directive 2007/64/EC (the "Payment Services Directive") states:
    1. Payments shall be made in the currency agreed between the parties.
    2. Where a currency conversion service is offered prior to the initiation of the payment transaction and where that currency conversion service is offered at the point of sale or by the payee, the party offering the currency conversion service to the payer shall disclose to the payer all charges as well as the exchange rate to be used for converting the payment transaction.
    The payer shall agree to the currency conversion service on that basis.
    And in Spanish to quote to errant merchants (although MSE intentionally corrupts the spelling):
    1. Los pagos se efectuar!n en la divisa que las partes hayan acordado.
    2. Cuando se ofrezca un servicio de cambio de divisa con anterioridad al comienzo de la operaci!n de pago y dicho servicio de cambio de divisa sea ofrecido en el punto de venta o por el beneficiario, la parte que ofrezca el servicio de cambio de divisa al ordenante deber! informar a este de todos los gastos, as! como del tipo de cambio que se emplear! para la conversi!n de la operaci!n de pago.
    El ordenante aceptar! el servicio de cambio de divisa bajo estas condiciones.
    The directive doesn't say that the currency must be agreed before initiation of the transaction. It actually says what must be disclosed to the customer if a currency conversion service is offered before initiation of the transaction. The directive seems badly worded, because it doesn't cover what happens if a currency conversion service is offered after initiation of the transaction, which is what happens with dynamic currency conversion, i.e. after you insert your card, and in some cases after you enter your PIN.

    EU legislation is desperately needed to prohibit the offering of a currency conversion service after initiation of the transaction, i.e. after presenting the card or card number for payment. Any change of currency must be agreed before the card is presented, i.e. before the merchant can identify the country of issue of the card. This would kill off dynamic currency conversion except for consumers who specifically ask for it.
    • osborne1-0
    • By osborne1-0 31st Aug 17, 3:51 PM
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    osborne1-0
    Car Hire Fuel Refund in Stirling - DCC
    What should we do when hiring a car?
    Everything is paid in Euros, including the fuel deposit.
    At the same time request fuel deposit to be refunded in Euros, when possessed.
    But every time it is refunded in Stirling, when we are back in the UK.
    • NFH
    • By NFH 31st Aug 17, 5:59 PM
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    NFH
    At the same time request fuel deposit to be refunded in Euros, when possessed.
    But every time it is refunded in Stirling, when we are back in the UK.
    Originally posted by osborne1-0
    On a refund, DCC can work in the card holder's favour, because the rate is the same, but on buying GBP instead of selling GBP. That's if DCC follows the same principle on refunds as card issuers follow.

    If the rate is instead marked up in the opposite direction, you should query this with the hire car company. Tell them that you did not receive the full EUR x.xx, and instead received GBP y.yy, which is contractually insufficient.
    • Bail64
    • By Bail64 10th Sep 17, 3:43 PM
    • 1 Posts
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    Bail64
    Holiday debit card fraud
    Just returned from holiday to Gran Canaria and tried to get some money from atm only to find best part of £1900 ( account cleared out) gone .
    Contacted Lloyds Bank after finding online that 2 transactions are pending - one for £41 and another for £1800+ leaving my account empty .
    Before I went away I went online to inform them I may be using my debit card in Spain between the 2nd and 10th . On the 8th I went online to cancel this as hadn't needed to use and didn't mean to use the card last couple of days - obviously thinking this would then flag up any purchase/out of the ordinary purchase , especially abroad ???
    Then on last day whilst doing some last minute gift shopping , I got separated from partner who had our cash so I used debit card for €45/£41 purchase . Shop keeper handed me card machine which said €45 , put in card and pin , removed card when prompted and I've receipt for the €45 . At around the same time a chip and pin transaction for £1800+ has been made without my authorisation . Foriegn transaction ! , out of the ordinary amount ! - no flags ???
    Lloyds have said as it is a chip and pin transaction ( not done by me ) the card has not been compromised and they will do nothing about it .
    Obviously I'm bloody furious , told them so and told them I will have to seek legal advice . They told me they will report it as a complaint and someone from the complaints department will contact me within 48 working hours . But from my initial contact with them I hold out little hope of them being willing to do anything .
    Has anyone any advice as to my options before they get back in touch ?
    • NFH
    • By NFH 10th Sep 17, 5:15 PM
    • 4,305 Posts
    • 1,410 Thanks
    NFH
    Shop keeper handed me card machine which said €45 , put in card and pin , removed card when prompted and I've receipt for the €45 . At around the same time a chip and pin transaction for £1800+ has been made without my authorisation . Foriegn transaction ! , out of the ordinary amount ! - no flags ???
    Lloyds have said as it is a chip and pin transaction ( not done by me ) the card has not been compromised and they will do nothing about it .
    Obviously I'm bloody furious , told them so and told them I will have to seek legal advice . They told me they will report it as a complaint and someone from the complaints department will contact me within 48 working hours . But from my initial contact with them I hold out little hope of them being willing to do anything .
    Has anyone any advice as to my options before they get back in touch ?
    Originally posted by Bail64
    Wait until you receive the Lloyds' final response and then escalate to the Financial Ombudsman Service. The onus will be on Lloyds to prove that the transaction was authorised by you. The onus is not on you to prove that it was not authorised by you.

    In the meantime, you should pressure Lloyds to apply a temporary credit. I believe there is some requirement for them to do so while they investigate a disputed transaction, the rationale being that you should not be out of pocket for a duration that is caused by the card issuer's own delay.

    Two questions:
    1. What was the currency and amount that was charged to your card?
    2. Does the authorised transaction for EUR 45 appear on your statement?
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