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  • FIRST POST
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 17th Aug 17, 5:14 PM
    • 62Posts
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    Jhpt
    So I'm going to court...
    • #1
    • 17th Aug 17, 5:14 PM
    So I'm going to court... 17th Aug 17 at 5:14 PM
    So looks like I'm one of the chosen few who make it all the way through to court..

    Looking for any input please! I've read through the forums but would really appreciate any help anybody can offer.

    To give you a timeline of events;

    - Ticketed on 8/1/17 in my residents car park (2 spaces as part of my monthly rental agreement) as my pass had slipped from my dashboard
    I stupidly believed they'd waive the ticket if presented with evidence of my right to park - I wrote to them (giving them my address.. DOH!) with a photocopy of my residents parking permit. Received a letter stating that I hadn't displayed my pass and was therefore not exempt from paying a fine (£60 rising to £100) I responded stating I would NOT be paying and any further correspondence was to be through my lawyer
    - 20/2/17 first letter now stating I owed £100
    - 5/4/17 letter from "Debt Recovery Plus Ltd (DRP)" stating a charge of £149.00 now owed (no reasoning for the 49 increase)
    - 20/4/17 2nd letter from DRP re-iterating £149.00 owed "If you haven't paid in full or made arrangements to pay by 4/5/17 we'll pass your file to our client with a recommendation that they take court action against you"
    - 05/5/17 3rd letter from DRP now stating a final settlement offer of £126.65 - no explanation of exactly how they've calculated this. "If you haven't paid the reduced amount by 19/5/17, our client will withdraw the offer. This means the amount due will go back to the full amount of £149.00.."
    - 5/6/17 1st letter from Gladstones Solicitors claiming £149
    - 25/7/17 2nd letter from Gladstones solicitors claiming £160 - no explanation included as to the rise of £11.
    - 17/8/17 TODAY receive a letter from the court (dated 14/8/17) to let me know I was being taken to court for £241.53 (166.53 + 25 court fee + 50 legal representatives)

    Now my reasons why I feel this ticket is unfair;
    1) As part of my tenancy agreement I have a right to park in two parking spaces
    2) The signage displayed states the parking company are a member of the BPA (They are NOT - they are IPC) - confusing myself as to whether they are a genuine company (my search of the BPA website showed nothing...) and of course confusing my decision of who to appeal the ticket too..
    3) This is a residents car park, managed to my knowledge by the residents association - do THEY have the right to ticket on their behalf or do they need written permission from the land owner?
    4) The way the fees have been increased 60-100-149-126.65-149-160 is confusing and has left me failing to understand the ongoing process
    5) I communicated I would only discuss correspondence further through my solicitors - they have failed to do so.

    Any advice here guys? Thanks so much in advance!
    Last edited by Jhpt; 17-08-2017 at 5:22 PM.
Page 6
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 20th Nov 17, 2:50 PM
    • 62 Posts
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    Jhpt
    Quick update - just spoken to the courts, they've referred my request for the case to be treated as a costs hearing to the Judge for review today.. fingers crossed!
    • Lamilad
    • By Lamilad 21st Nov 17, 9:53 PM
    • 1,198 Posts
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    Lamilad
    What did the court say when you rung them?
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 22nd Nov 17, 12:21 PM
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    Jhpt
    The guy was pretty helpful - just let me know the judge was going to review my WS and my request to consider this as a costs order/ strike the case out (I'd previously made this request as a cover letter included with WS due to awful PoCs)

    No news yet!
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 27th Nov 17, 8:35 AM
    • 62 Posts
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    Jhpt
    UPDATE

    Just received another letter from the court;

    This is following on from emailing x1 and telephoning the court, asking if they'd received anything from the Claimant as I was yet to, and then sending a cover letter via email asking for the case to be dismissed due to the Claimant not abiding by the timeline set out by the court.

    "IT IS ORDERED THAT

    1. The Defendant shall serve copies of the Defendant's emails on the Claimant by 4pm on 8 December 2017

    2. Unless the Claimant issues and a copy on the Defendant by 4pm on 15 December 2017, an application for an extension of time for its evidence including copies of the Claimant's evidence in accordance with Paragraph 2 of the order of 9 October 2017 (To include full responses to the Defendan'ts evidence), then the claim shall be dismissed and the Defendant shall have permission to apply (with a statement of reason and amount) for costs (attention being drawn to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14). If the Claimant does not comply then the Court will consider whether the application is heard before or at the Small Claims Hearing.

    "

    CAN I please ask...

    1. As I understand this, I have to send copies of my communication with the Court to the Claimant by 8 December
    2. The Claimant has to send me their evidence, ? WITH an application for extension of time ? by 15 December

    I understand I've made an error here by not copying the Claimant into my previous emails to the court requesting this be dismissed - annoyingly (albiet correctly) this has been picked up on by the Judge, despite them not contacting me.

    Thanks once more.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 27th Nov 17, 8:44 AM
    • 1,815 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    I understand I've made an error here by not copying the Claimant into my previous emails to the court requesting this be dismissed - annoyingly (albiet correctly) this has been picked up on by the Judge, despite them not contacting me.
    Yup

    The issue as Johnersh has mentioned a number of times is you have to give the other party notice of your complaint so they can rectify it. For example, and this is common with Gladstones, they claim an admin error and "if only" the defendant let them know ....

    So follow the court's instructions and tell Gladstones what the complaint is. And then see if they respond.

    IMHO it is better to let the "admin errors" lie and to pick up the lack if WS at the hearing as you usually get the case thrown out and costs.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 27th Nov 17, 8:46 AM
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    Jhpt
    Thanks - I've learnt my lesson here! Stupid oversight in hindsight.. complaining the Claimant isn't going by the book when I stupidly hadn't either in this instance. I've sent them BOTH!! a word document with the content of emails and the relevant attachments. Hopefully this is cleaned up by the 15 December!

    Anybody like to hazard a guess as to whether I'll ever hear anything from the claimant?
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 27th Nov 17, 9:06 AM
    • 1,815 Posts
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    IamEmanresu
    Anybody like to hazard a guess as to whether I'll ever hear anything from the claimant?
    The claimant is not running this, Gladstones are. You'll get one of their roboclaim Witness Statements and depending on whether they have a bunch of claims at your court, you'll get a rent-a-mouth paralegal whose Rights of Audience you can challenge.

    If they don't have other claims at that court then a Notice of Discontinuance**.

    These cases are no longer about the legalities but as simply number driven abuses of the system.

    ** Send your costs schedule in as if there is no NoD, you can cover yourself by having a large and extensive costs sheet. You may be lucky and get a judge who is thoroughly jaundiced by the antics used and is happy to use his powers with regards to costs.
    Last edited by IamEmanresu; 27-11-2017 at 9:09 AM.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.

    Send them that costs schedule though, 24 hours before the hearing, and file it with the court. Take with you evidence that you have sent the costs schedule to them and when.
    LoC
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 27th Nov 17, 9:39 AM
    • 1,166 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    to be fair, given the judge has already led the way with this order specifically pointing out costs, it suggests theyre not too happy about it....
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 27th Nov 17, 3:32 PM
    • 62 Posts
    • 20 Thanks
    Jhpt
    The claimant is not running this, Gladstones are. You'll get one of their roboclaim Witness Statements and depending on whether they have a bunch of claims at your court, you'll get a rent-a-mouth paralegal whose Rights of Audience you can challenge.

    If they don't have other claims at that court then a Notice of Discontinuance**.

    These cases are no longer about the legalities but as simply number driven abuses of the system.

    ** Send your costs schedule in as if there is no NoD, you can cover yourself by having a large and extensive costs sheet. You may be lucky and get a judge who is thoroughly jaundiced by the antics used and is happy to use his powers with regards to costs.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    Thanks - have started on costs already, as I have spent a fair amount on postage, printing etc. not to mention loss of earnings from time spent on this I should have been working on.

    Fingers crossed on the Judge! As nosferatu says as they've already led the way mentioning costs/ CPR etc I hope they're slightly sympathetic here...
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 27th Nov 17, 7:25 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    I agree with nosferato. The strong indication is that the court (well that judge anyway, and you of course may get a different one) is already sympathetic to a 27.14(2)(g) costs order.

    The PPC now has to apply for leave to adduce late evidence, or is barred from doing so. That is effectively the meaning of this order.
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 28th Nov 17, 11:21 AM
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    Jhpt
    The PPC now has to apply for leave to adduce late evidence, or is barred from doing so. That is effectively the meaning of this order.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    The wording of the court letter has slightly confused me - so the PPC need to ask for permission to produce a WS/Evidence as it's late? Is this definitely granted?

    Thanks LOC!
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 28th Nov 17, 11:39 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    "IT IS ORDERED THAT

    1. .........

    2. Unless the Claimant issues and a copy on the Defendant by 4pm on 15 December 2017, an application for an extension of time for its evidence including copies of the Claimant's evidence in accordance with Paragraph 2 of the order of 9 October 2017 (To include full responses to the Defendan'ts evidence), then the claim shall be dismissed and the Defendant shall have permission to apply (with a statement of reason and amount) for costs (attention being drawn to Civil Procedure Rule 27.14). If the Claimant does not comply then the Court will consider whether the application is heard before or at the Small Claims Hearing.

    "

    CAN I please ask...

    1. As I understand this, I have to send copies of my communication with the Court to the Claimant by 8 December yes
    2. The Claimant has to send me their evidence, ? no WITH an application for extension of time ? by 15 December they have got to apply for permission to rely on any WS as they haven't served it in time. Until they successfully apply there is no WS so you won't get a copy of it. Read the words I've put in bold which simplifies it a bit.
    If they haven't issued an application by 15 December then their claim will be dismissed. This should happen automatically, but if I were you I'd phone the court to chase for the dismissal order to be made. 15 Dec is a Friday, I'd probably wait until Tuesday morning to make that call. The Claimant has to both lodge the application at court and send it to you.
    Originally posted by Jhpt

    Chances of success if they do issue an application: can't say without knowing more. Eg how late are they (if not very that goes in their favour), what their excuse will be (when they issue the application they have to file a statement with it explaining what the delay was - a weak excuse will be that there was an admin failure on their part - that in itself is not a reason to allow late service, frankly it's a matter of negligence for which their client can seek redress, it shouldn't be used to prejudice you), what prejudice this has caused you (they've seen your evidence when they shouldn't have, will this cause the trial date to be put back etc).


    When you get their application/evidence, post it on here. You must respond to it quickly in order to persuade the court not to grant the application and to dismiss the claim.


    *edit: sorry my quoting didn't work, don't know why, but you'll get what I'm trying to say
    Last edited by Loadsofchildren123; 28-11-2017 at 1:40 PM.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 28th Nov 17, 12:41 PM
    • 3,582 Posts
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    DoaM
    Quoting failed because you've included [/ from the QUOTE] tag within the red font colour tag.
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 28th Nov 17, 1:41 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Tada! I have managed to correct it
    • logician
    • By logician 28th Nov 17, 2:16 PM
    • 90 Posts
    • 43 Thanks
    logician
    update

    just received another letter from the court;

    this is following on from emailing x1 and telephoning the court, asking if they'd received anything from the claimant as i was yet to, and then sending a cover letter via email asking for the case to be dismissed due to the claimant not abiding by the timeline set out by the court.

    "it is ordered that

    1. The defendant shall serve copies of the defendant's emails on the claimant by 4pm on 8 december 2017

    2. Unless the claimant issues and a copy on the defendant by 4pm on 15 december 2017, an application for an extension of time for its evidence including copies of the claimant's evidence in accordance with paragraph 2 of the order of 9 october 2017 (to include full responses to the defendan'ts evidence), then the claim shall be dismissed and the defendant shall have permission to apply (with a statement of reason and amount) for costs (attention being drawn to civil procedure rule 27.14). If the claimant does not comply then the court will consider whether the application is heard before or at the small claims hearing.

    "

    can i please ask...

    1. As i understand this, i have to send copies of my communication with the court to the claimant by 8 december yes
    2. The claimant has to send me their evidence, ? Yes
    with an application for extension of time ? By 15 december yes


    i understand i've made an error here by not copying the claimant into my previous emails to the court requesting this be dismissed - annoyingly (albiet correctly) this has been picked up on by the judge, despite them not contacting me.

    Thanks once more.
    Originally posted by jhpt
    yes the claimant needs to make an application for an extension of time to submit the evidence. The copy of the order application must be served on you together with copies of their evidence, including responses to your evidence
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 28th Nov 17, 3:02 PM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    Agree with the above, my "no" to the first part of your second point should have been a yes - but you aren't being formally served with their evidence, you're just being given a copy of it with their application, IF they issue it. If they don't issue it, their claim is to be struck out.

    There's an interesting point here that's always being made out in defences, but at a final hearing never pays attention to it (not because it isn't a good point, but because it doesn't have time to consider everything and just wants to make a decision on the day). The point is that PPCs habitually issue claims with very brief, poor PoC that are woefully deficient in breach of Rules 7 and 16. Very rarely, the court picks up on it and orders them to file proper more detailed PoC.
    The PPC then takes the opportunity to put all the info into its WS that should have been in the PoC. What it is effectively doing is amending how its case is pleaded, but in the evidence. What this means it that it is effectively amending the Particulars, but without leave and without having to pay the court fee that normally has to be paid.

    Because in your case the issue is whether or not they should be allowed to put in a WS, I think this is a good point for you to include in your letter to the court asking them to deny the extension of time. You'll have sight of the WS before they've been given permission to serve it, and you can make the point that all the information in paragraphs x, y and z has not been pleaded and the Claimant shouldn't be permitted to re-plead its case in the WS rather than formally amending the claim (because to do so prevents you from defending it properly, which is your absolute right). It will be interesting to see what approach the court takes to this, because the PPCs shouldn't be getting away with it.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • logician
    • By logician 28th Nov 17, 4:57 PM
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    logician
    Agree with the above, my "no" to the first part of your second point should have been a yes - but you aren't being formally served with their evidence, you're just being given a copy of it with their application, IF they issue it. If they don't issue it, their claim is to be struck out.

    There's an interesting point here that's always being made out in defences, but at a final hearing never pays attention to it (not because it isn't a good point, but because it doesn't have time to consider everything and just wants to make a decision on the day). The point is that PPCs habitually issue claims with very brief, poor PoC that are woefully deficient in breach of Rules 7 and 16. Very rarely, the court picks up on it and orders them to file proper more detailed PoC.
    The PPC then takes the opportunity to put all the info into its WS that should have been in the PoC. What it is effectively doing is amending how its case is pleaded, but in the evidence. What this means it that it is effectively amending the Particulars, but without leave and without having to pay the court fee that normally has to be paid.

    Because in your case the issue is whether or not they should be allowed to put in a WS, I think this is a good point for you to include in your letter to the court asking them to deny the extension of time. You'll have sight of the WS before they've been given permission to serve it, and you can make the point that all the information in paragraphs x, y and z has not been pleaded and the Claimant shouldn't be permitted to re-plead its case in the WS rather than formally amending the claim (because to do so prevents you from defending it properly, which is your absolute right). It will be interesting to see what approach the court takes to this, because the PPCs shouldn't be getting away with it.
    Originally posted by Loadsofchildren123
    If the OP complies with part one of the order and
    IF the Claimant complies with the second part, then IMO the court will be looking at the documents and the application for extension and will then make any further directions needed or take any decision under CPR 3.4.

    No need to rush in immediately with any letter, the OP should wait to see if the Claimant meets the deadline first.


    Incidentally the courts do sometimes make decisions based on non compliance for CPR at hearings, in cases where I have assisted there already have been a batch of strike outs and dismissals for non compliance under rule 16 including costs for unreasonable conduct.



    ETA btw LOC123 like your new signature
    Last edited by logician; 28-11-2017 at 5:13 PM.
    • Loadsofchildren123
    • By Loadsofchildren123 29th Nov 17, 10:44 AM
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    Loadsofchildren123
    If D doesn't write in and object to the application being granted, it's more likely to be granted. I think (s)he should write in to object to it making all those points. Nothing to lose and everything to gain. No point writing in until the application is actually issued, because the PPC may miss the deadline and you have nothing to object to until they do apply.
    Although a practising Solicitor, my posts here are NOT legal advice, but are personal opinion based on limited facts provided anonymously by forum users. I accept no liability for the accuracy of any such posts and users are advised that, if they wish to obtain formal legal advice specific to their case, they must seek instruct and pay a solicitor.
    • Jhpt
    • By Jhpt 29th Nov 17, 12:48 PM
    • 62 Posts
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    Jhpt
    Thank you all for such great input and for explaining this to me - bit of a better result than I first thought!

    LOC - completely understand, and as you say nothing to lose by writing in once I have (if it happens) reccieved the application. To update I have already served the PPC/Court with the additional information as point 1.

    Can I ask finally - if the Claimant fails to respond by 15 Dec, is it possible that I can still claim costs?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 29th Nov 17, 1:45 PM
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    nosferatu1001
    You can give it a go, as was already pointed out to you! Part 2 of the order said you should look to costs under CPR27.14, and this specifically means 27.14(2)(g) - this says you dont get costs in small claims UNLESS one party was unreasonable.

    Breach of multiple orders would be unreasonable
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