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  • FIRST POST
    • MotoristPaper
    • By MotoristPaper 16th Aug 17, 7:54 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 3Thanks
    MotoristPaper
    Parkingeye exceeded paid for time limit
    • #1
    • 16th Aug 17, 7:54 PM
    Parkingeye exceeded paid for time limit 16th Aug 17 at 7:54 PM
    Hello, I was recently lucky enough to get a post PCN from ParkingEye. I paid for 4 hours and was 30 mins late leaving the car park due to being on a call at work. There is ANPR and I received a PCN through the post. I have read the Newbies thread and the template letter around inadequate signage, some colleagues have however suggested I need to mention that £100 is not comparable to the loss of the car park owner which would be around £1-2 for the the time exceeded.

    I've also been advised that I should state that a Parking company cannot form a contract as they are not the landowners. Do I need to mention these in the initial appeal or is it fairly irrelavent as they will more than likely reject it and then drag out these pertinent points at the POPLA stage?

    Cheers for any advice.
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 16th Aug 17, 7:58 PM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,500 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 16th Aug 17, 7:58 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Aug 17, 7:58 PM
    Just send the BPA template in blue exactly as it appears in the NEWBIES. Save everything else for PoPLA.

    Forget the loss point. That was scuppered by the Beavis case in the Supreme Court.

    How soon after the alleged event did the NTK arrive, and does it have a bit saying something like, after 29 days ...?
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 16th Aug 17, 8:39 PM
    • 10,192 Posts
    • 9,321 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #3
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:39 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:39 PM
    Did your friend also say the earth was flat? Just about as accurate as what they have told you.

    Not valid as they don't own the land??? Just what do you imagine this whole forum is about?

    Take Fruitcake's initial advice and tell your friend to educate themselves by spending 30 minutes on here.
    • beamerguy
    • By beamerguy 16th Aug 17, 8:39 PM
    • 5,950 Posts
    • 7,658 Thanks
    beamerguy
    • #4
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:39 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:39 PM
    Hello, I was recently lucky enough to get a post PCN from ParkingEye. I paid for 4 hours and was 30 mins late leaving the car park due to being on a call at work. There is ANPR and I received a PCN through the post. I have read the Newbies thread and the template letter around inadequate signage, some colleagues have however suggested I need to mention that £100 is not comparable to the loss of the car park owner which would be around £1-2 for the the time exceeded.

    I've also been advised that I should state that a Parking company cannot form a contract as they are not the landowners. Do I need to mention these in the initial appeal or is it fairly irrelavent as they will more than likely reject it and then drag out these pertinent points at the POPLA stage?

    Cheers for any advice.
    Originally posted by MotoristPaper
    With respect,your colleagues are talking out of the place the sun don't shine and you best put them the right before they lumber others with bad info

    Forget the loss bit, that was sorted with Beavis v Parkingeye
    in 2015 ,, parkingeye won !!

    You need to do some homework to see if PE have permission
    from the landlord/landowner

    Do tell your colleagues to fully understand by looking at this
    forum before making incorrect comments
    RBS - MNBA - CAPITAL ONE - LLOYDS

    DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR
    • The Slithy Tove
    • By The Slithy Tove 16th Aug 17, 8:50 PM
    • 3,204 Posts
    • 4,626 Thanks
    The Slithy Tove
    • #5
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:50 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:50 PM
    Forget the loss bit, that was sorted with Beavis v Parkingeye
    in 2015 ,, parkingeye won !!
    Originally posted by beamerguy
    Though PE vs Beavis did also state that pay-per-hour car parks are quite different from the Beavis case itself, and that a £100 charge for an overstay which would have cost, say, £1/hour, would be "perverse". So, be sure to use their own "winning" case against them.
    • MotoristPaper
    • By MotoristPaper 16th Aug 17, 8:52 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MotoristPaper
    • #6
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:52 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:52 PM
    Thank you for the advice, I will use the template. I received the PCN 8 days after the alleged event and it does indeed mention POFA and 29 days.

    How would I go about finding if ParkingEye have permission from the landowner? I have googled ParkingEye and the car park name but can't find anything specific.

    I will be sure to mention this to my colleagues, they are well meaning but I know one of them gave advice from a ticket from at least 5 years ago.

    Cheers
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 16th Aug 17, 8:58 PM
    • 1,063 Posts
    • 667 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    • #7
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:58 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Aug 17, 8:58 PM
    I've also been advised that . . .
    To quote Wikipedia, "Citation required".
    • Redx
    • By Redx 16th Aug 17, 9:02 PM
    • 15,493 Posts
    • 19,580 Thanks
    Redx
    • #8
    • 16th Aug 17, 9:02 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Aug 17, 9:02 PM
    your colleagues know nothing about these matters !! period

    you wont "see" any contract until the POPLA or court stage, and even then it may be redacted

    to find landholder details, the only guaranteed way is to pay the LAND REGISTRY a few quid and they will tell you who the owner is (but you still wont get to see any contract with PE)

    if you were to name the car park in question , and any other retailers (if any) that it serves , like a retail park for example, others on here may have come across it before

    also search this forum using the drop down search box and suitable search words

    this is a complicated topic , so you need to be a bit of a sherlock to understand it and deal with these matters

    at least you are in the right place for good advice and help (for free)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 16th Aug 17, 9:14 PM
    • 10,192 Posts
    • 9,321 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #9
    • 16th Aug 17, 9:14 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Aug 17, 9:14 PM
    Here are the facts. You used a car park. You overstayed. You got caught.

    On the face of it, nowhere to run. Except here.

    So you need help to find "get out clauses" to see if the PPC has tripped up.

    Collectively, we have a shed load of experience and knowledge, so you need to trust the regulars with decent post counts.

    OK.

    Which car park?
    Date of contravention?
    Date on NTK?
    Confirm you have written nothing back yet.
    • MotoristPaper
    • By MotoristPaper 16th Aug 17, 10:41 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MotoristPaper
    Hi, car park in question was bailey lane in Sheffield. Date of alleged offence was 31st July, NTK dated 4th August and received 8th August.

    There are no shops served, ita a bit of concreted over land witha couple of dozen spaces.

    Doing a search on here I found one successful appeal from 2014, the poster appealed on the grounds that she overstayed due to having to change her baby's oxygen tank. Parkingeye overturned it as it seems there was some equality act violations on their part.

    Cheers.for.the continued and up to date advice
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Aug 17, 11:01 PM
    • 49,992 Posts
    • 63,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Don't read anything older than 2016/17 threads.

    You don't want PE to show you they have landowner authority, in fact! You want to beat them by their omissions. Alleging 'no landowner authority' is a template standard POPLA appeal stage point, along with the others in the NEWBIES thread post #3, and it will be up to PE to contest your appeal then and prove it. And contest all other points you make, which are already in the NEWBIES thread, pre-written. Sometimes, they don't contest, sometimes they fail to evidence things.

    We know what we are doing - forget the outdated stuff about ''no loss'' - you'd lose hands down at POPLA if you even whispered it in appeal, and you don't write about mitigating circumstances/being on call, either.

    Does the PCN have a section on the back, about the POFA 2012 and the keeper and 29 days?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MotoristPaper
    • By MotoristPaper 17th Aug 17, 12:35 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MotoristPaper
    Thanks Coupon-mad, I think I understand the method now, at the POPLA stage you are effectively throwing them an armful of contest points with the aim that they are unable or choose not to counter them. Resulting in them either giving up for an easier target or poking holes in their own case.

    There is mention of POFA and 29 days on the ticket.

    Cheers
    • MotoristPaper
    • By MotoristPaper 17th Aug 17, 12:41 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MotoristPaper
    Oh forgot to add I have not written anything back yet, but I think I am well informed to send them the standard template. Slithy Tove mentioned using Beavis case that it is 'perverse' to charge £100 for a £1-2 loss, is it worth throwing this into the mix or keep it in the back pocket for POPLA.

    I understand that I will leave mitigating circumstances out as probably nothing short of being abducted by Mulder and Scully is mitigating in PE's eyes.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 17th Aug 17, 1:00 PM
    • 497 Posts
    • 590 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    No, dont talk about loss. No point. they wont cancel at this stage, so use the tried and tested points at POPLA

    POPLA are pretty useless when it comes to actually understanding the law as it stands, so I would NOT argue loss at POPLA, at all.
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 19th Aug 17, 1:22 AM
    • 1,063 Posts
    • 667 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    Perhaps the ill-advising colleagues could be asked to chip in a few quid.
    • MotoristPaper
    • By MotoristPaper 6th Sep 17, 10:02 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MotoristPaper
    Hello again,

    I've used the template BPA appeal as advised and recently got a POPLA code from PE. I've been having a read of some of the POPLA templates and put the following together based on the advice to be as verbose as possible. Could anyone please have a look and let me know if theres anything I should add/change? For what its worth I made a trip back to the car park recently and took some pictures of the signage. I have removed or edited links as the filter doesn't like me posting them.

    Is there any mileage in the fact that the sign on the entrance is quite high up and not that big i.e not sure you could read from a car? There is also nothing about the PCN amount on the payment screen. PE to date have not provided any photos other than the entering and leaving on the ANPR

    Thank you in advance for any advice

    imageshack[.]com/a/img922/1619/KMqs3M.jpg
    imageshack[.]com/a/img923/5376/YI8ruF.jpg

    POPLA Ref No.xxxxxxxx
    I am the registered keeper and I wish to appeal a recent parking charge from Parking Eye Ltd due to the following point. The charge is levied despite the driver not being identified.

    1. Insufficient signage.

    The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:



    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:



    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:



    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:



    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''

    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:


    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.

    2. No evidence of Landowner Authority

    No evidence of Landowner Authority - the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    As this operator does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what this operator is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement

    3.Unreliable ANPR system

    Also Parking Eye have provided no evidence that the ANPR system is reliable. The operator is obliged to ensure their ANPR equipment is maintained as described in paragraph 21.3 of the British Parking Association's Approved Operator Scheme Code of Practice. I require the Operator to present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show the vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that this Operator must produce evidence in response to these points and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss by the Operator in Parking Eye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed
    when the judge said the evidence form the Operator was 'fundamentally flawed' as the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.
    Parking Eye has not provided any evidence to show that their system is reliable, accurate or maintained. I request that you uphold my appeal based on this.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 17, 1:50 AM
    • 49,992 Posts
    • 63,387 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I wouldn't ever use point #3 - it's too old. And POPLA never listen to an ANPR point.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • MotoristPaper
    • By MotoristPaper 13th Sep 17, 12:26 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    MotoristPaper
    Thanks CM, I'll omit that part. After some digging I have today an email from my local planning department at the council confirming that the signs at the car park do not have any planning or advertisement permission and it would appear there is no permission for the ANPR camera poles either.

    I found reference to a couple of court cases being discontinued by PE on Parking Prankster based on there being no planning permission. I will chuck this into the kitchen sink Popla appeal but owndered if anyone had any experience of how strong a defence this?

    On the llus side the council are taking some enforcement action against some giant drape parking adverts included in my pictures
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 13th Sep 17, 5:52 PM
    • 10,192 Posts
    • 9,321 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    Your main point of contention is challenging their signs. Isit not, therefore, up to you to produce some evidence to back this up? Photos, I mean.
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