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  • FIRST POST
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 16th Aug 17, 10:13 AM
    • 389Posts
    • 184Thanks
    snarffie
    Parking Eye PCN: 10 minutes over
    • #1
    • 16th Aug 17, 10:13 AM
    Parking Eye PCN: 10 minutes over 16th Aug 17 at 10:13 AM
    Hi,

    I just got a PCN from parking eye with an amount due of £60 (if paid within 14 days, rising to £100).

    It was in a Halfords/Range car park and the PCN states that the time in car park was 2hrs 10minutes, which is 10 minuted over the stated maximum of 2 hours. The actual times show that it was 2hours 10 minutes and 49 seconds.

    I am minded to pay this charge as I don't really want to go through months of hassle and nasty letters, but wondered about a couple of things:

    1. If I appealed the charge, would I have to pay the full £100 if I lost the appeal as I would be over the 14 days period, or does this get frozen?

    2. Is there not some kind of grace period, or is this only upon arrival?

    Any advice would be appreciated.

    Thanks
Page 3
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 2:50 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    Items 6 and 7 of appeal: ParkingEye have not provided a suitable response.
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 2:50 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    8: The ANPR system is neither reliable nor accurate

    Don't really know how/if it's worth responding to this
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 2:55 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    Sorry guys, the query relating to evidence provided by PE to my POPLA appeal starts at post #35!

    I can cut and paste any bits from the evidence pack if that's useful

    Edit: Just noticed POPLA only allow 2000 characters, so need to reduce roughly in HALF!
    Last edited by snarffie; 25-09-2017 at 3:11 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 25th Sep 17, 3:33 PM
    • 15,873 Posts
    • 24,605 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    5:No evidence of Landowner Authority-the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

    ParkingEye have included in their evidence pack a ‘witness statement,’ but the document has not been signed by the landowner, but rather a managing agent of the site. No evidence has been submitted to confirm that this managing agent has the authority to act on behalf of the landowner, especially with regards to entering into long term contracts with third party companies.
    Originally posted by snarffie
    I'd go through each line of the BPA Code of Practice (as below) and pull apart the Witness Statement where it doesn't meet the specific requirement.

    7.1 If you do not own the land on which you are carrying out parking management, you must have the written authorisation of the landowner (or their appointed agent).The written con rmation must be given before you can start operating on the land in question and give you the authority to carry out all the aspects of car park management for the site that you are responsible for. In particular, it must say that the landowner (or their appointed agent) requires you to keep to the Code
    of Practice and that you have the authority to pursue outstanding parking charges.
    If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.
    The written authorisation must also set out:
    the boundaries of the land can be clearly de ned
    any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation
    any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles
    that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement
    who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs
    a the de nition of the land on which you may operate, so that
    e the de nition of the services provided by each party to the agreement
    Our compliance team are responsible for making sure that you follow the Code. If the team give you reasonable notice, you must allow our appointed manager to inspect the landowner’s written authorisation.
    Sorry, formatting is rubbish, so you'll need to have the Code of Practice to hand and quote each sub para number which hasn't reproduced in my copy and paste above.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Sep 17, 3:36 PM
    • 51,666 Posts
    • 65,325 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    8: The ANPR system is neither reliable nor accurate

    Don't really know how/if it's worth responding to this
    Originally posted by snarffie
    I would leave the ANPR query out of it.

    You can email your comments instead but I favour keeping them short, on the Portal at this stage.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 25th Sep 17, 3:38 PM
    • 15,873 Posts
    • 24,605 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Sorry guys, the query relating to evidence provided by PE to my POPLA appeal starts at post #35!

    I can cut and paste any bits from the evidence pack if that's useful

    Edit: Just noticed POPLA only allow 2000 characters, so need to reduce roughly in HALF!
    Originally posted by snarffie
    You can convert to a .pdf file and attach it to an email to POPLA without having to overly cut the number of characters - but don't go writing too much, especially not repeating what you've already put in your original appeal. Make sure you have all your necessary reference numbers showing on the email.

    Ask in the email that they confirm receipt, that your comments will be associated with your original appeal and that the assessor will read and analyse them before making a final decision.

    If you don't get confirmation, give them a phone call.
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 25-09-2017 at 3:41 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 3:51 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    Thanks for the guidance guys.

    Umkomaas, the website doesn't say I can submit an email, but I assume that this has always been the case and and email submission of response to evidence is ok? Should I submit the email and put a note in the website form to say something along those lines, ie. "Email submitted directly to POPLA".

    Coupon-mad, with regards to ANPR, do I just note that no satisfactory evidence has been provided by PE, just so that I note that I'm disputing their submission?


    Also, I'm a bit concerned that my response is bloated, particularly if I add the witness statement stuff (which does look justifiable and useful). Just concerned that POPLA might discard as it's all too verbose. Personally, I just think they should stop at Grace period and be done with it!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 25th Sep 17, 3:59 PM
    • 51,666 Posts
    • 65,325 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Umkomaas, the website doesn't say I can submit an email, but I assume that this has always been the case and and email submission of response to evidence is ok? Should I submit the email and put a note in the website form to say something along those lines, ie. "Email submitted directly to POPLA".
    I've done that loads of times but do keep it succinct, and ask POPLA to confirm back, that these comments will be read by the Assessor and taken into account.

    I prefer the Portal for comments, as that's what it's there for and where the Assessor will look. Cut down your submission to the main things.

    Coupon-mad, with regards to ANPR, do I just note that no satisfactory evidence has been provided by PE, just so that I note that I'm disputing their submission?
    I wouldn't even mention it at all - ANPR has never won a POPLA appeal with this version of POPLA.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 4:07 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    Thanks to you both!
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 4:18 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    I just checked out the witness statement against the BPA CoP, and they seem to have covered every point! Am I missing one, do you think?

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 25th Sep 17, 4:36 PM
    • 15,873 Posts
    • 24,605 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    You must make the point re Para 6 above that this WS has been constructed after the event. It is not the contract and should not be accepted in lieu of the contract, especially given its retrospective nature.

    Were there actual signatures on the WS?

    No mention on it about PE being authorised to pursue this through the courts (for much later, should the issue arise).
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 4:39 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    Thanks for that. There was a signature and printed name/position at the bottom. The signature is dated just under two weeks ago.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 25th Sep 17, 4:42 PM
    • 15,873 Posts
    • 24,605 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Thanks for that. There was a signature and printed name/position at the bottom. The signature is dated just under two weeks ago.
    Originally posted by snarffie
    Really press on the restrospective nature of this. Surely if PE had a contract in place at the time of, or before the parking event, why on earth would they be putting their client through the need to concoct this?

    And wouldn't a client be asking them why do they need it as there is (or should be) an existing contract?

    Something smells fishy in Grimsby!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 25th Sep 17, 5:01 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    That's great. Have butchered your comment modified item 5: (Hope it still makes sense)

    5: No evidence of Landowner Authority-the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice.

    ParkingEye have included in their evidence pack a ‘witness statement,’ but the document has not been signed by the landowner, but rather a managing agent of the site. No evidence has been submitted to confirm that this managing agent has the authority to act on behalf of the landowner, especially with regards to entering into long term contracts with third party companies.

    With reference to para. 6, this Witness Statement has been constructed AFTER the event. It is not the contract and should not be accepted in lieu of the contract, as ParkingEye appear to have concocted a retrospective Witness Statement when an existing contract should exist at the time of the parking event.
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 5th Oct 17, 12:42 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    Success!!
    Just received a successful decision from POPLA

    A few of my grounds were rejected, but this was the one that brought me success:

    "In this instance, taking into account the above I am satisfied that the appellant was not presented with a reasonable time period to exit the site, after the contract had entered. I am satisfied that 10 minutes is a reasonable time period to exit the site. As such, I conclude that the Parking Charge Notice had been issued incorrectly. I appreciate that the appellant has raised further grounds for appeal however, I have not taken this into account as I have allowed the appeal on grace periods."

    Thanks to everybody for their advice, particularly Coupon-mad and Umkomaas without which I would likely have given up and paid.
    • DoaM
    • By DoaM 5th Oct 17, 12:45 PM
    • 3,567 Posts
    • 3,613 Thanks
    DoaM
    Why are you assuming a few of your grounds were rejected ... does the full POPLA wording make that clear? (That's not what the last sentence you've quoted above means).

    PS - well done
    Diary of a madman
    Walk the line again today
    Entries of confusion
    Dear diary, I'm here to stay
    • snarffie
    • By snarffie 5th Oct 17, 12:51 PM
    • 389 Posts
    • 184 Thanks
    snarffie
    Why are you assuming a few of your grounds were rejected ... does the full POPLA wording make that clear? (That's not what the last sentence you've quoted above means).

    PS - well done
    Originally posted by DoaM
    You're quite right. I didn't appreciate that the first few paragraphs of the decision actually related to the narrative for the successful application rather than rejected grounds (It mentions keeper liability and the ANPR evidence being compliant). I skim read it.
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