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  • FIRST POST
    • robathandr
    • By robathandr 14th Aug 17, 9:05 PM
    • 7Posts
    • 4Thanks
    robathandr
    only entered last 3 letters of registration need help with legal appeal
    • #1
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:05 PM
    only entered last 3 letters of registration need help with legal appeal 14th Aug 17 at 9:05 PM
    I recently entered a private car park run by Parking Eye in Liverpool centre and because I had never come across this type of payment before I asked someone who was also buying a ticket what you had to do to get the ticket . He pointed to the signs and said I had to enter on a keyboard the last 3 letters of my registration then pay the money which is what I did - £1.50 for 1 hour as I was picking up my wife from a cinema visit. After about 40 minutes I realised that the cinema show was going to finish a bit later than I originally thought so I went back to pay for another hour to make sure I was covered for time.
    Approximately 10 days later I received a Parking Charge Notice with a fine for £100 for failing to make the appropriate payment for parking time. There are no phone numbers but I appealed on-line to be told I had not entered the full registration but only the last 3 letters and therefore was liable for a fine of £100 or £60 if paid with 14 days but as a 'gesture of goodwill' they would accept £20. I appealed again saying that if they checked they could easily see that I had not exceed my time and had paid the appropriate fee - the car park is only a small open air one and at most there. were 15 cars in the car park and in the time between me paying for the first and second tickets only one other car had gone into the car park . I was then told by the parking company that their internal appeals were finished and I could only appeal to POPLA , a so called independent appeals company. I sent an appeal to them explaining all that had happened only for my appeal to be rejected on the basis that the tickets I paid for were invalid because I had only put in the last 3 letters of the registration and therefore by parking with an invalid ticket I was breaking their terms and conditions and was liable to a fine of £100..
    I feel that a fine of £100 is in fairness out of all proportion for what is an honest mistake but one in which I did not fail to pay any fees which were due for the duration of my parking. Also I would have thought that as the ticket issued to me is invalid then I feel that the ticket should be cancelled as the issue of such a ticket would seem to be an unlawful action.
    Having started my appeals to both Parking Eye and POPLA under the impression that fairness and common sense would be sufficient I now realise that an argument on more of a legal basis is going to be required in order to take this further and I would appreciate any help or information that could be of benefit if this ends up in court.
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Aug 17, 9:12 PM
    • 40,477 Posts
    • 80,859 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:12 PM
    • #2
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:12 PM
    What happened when you complained to the landowner/cinema manager?

    There is nothing else you can do now except wait to see if Parking Lie issue court papers. Unfortunately they are very likely to do so.

    Also unfortunately you shot yourself in the foot by revealing the driver's identity, and not appealing to PoPLA on legal grounds.

    You therefore need to start collecting evidence such as pictures of the car park entrance and signage there and around the car park in case they decide to take you to court.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Aug 17, 9:14 PM
    • 16,567 Posts
    • 20,720 Thanks
    Redx
    • #3
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:14 PM
    • #3
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:14 PM
    hi

    I watched your video and read the online details too

    at the moment you are at stalemate

    shame you didnt get help from us earlier, but now its clear you know the score, but to be clear oin this , its not magistrates court you will be taken to , its your local civil court at your local county court

    read post #2 of the NEWBIES sticky thread, as that deals with both LBC stage and also MCOL stage too

    especially read the BARGEPOLE posts

    and read up on other similar cases that parking prankster has blogged about, with VRM entry and ticket machine woes

    like http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/excel-lose-in-court.html

    and

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/excel-lose-peel-centre-casemotorist-not.html

    in an ideal world , the ticket machines would compare what is put in against the VRM they captured on entry , and maybe give a list of possibles, like a doctors surgery when you sign in near reception

    but the private parking industry deliberately set people up to fail , so its important to know what these arguments are , plus the fact they accpeted your money so accpeted your new contract based on what you did enter

    its complicated , we know, so read up on all similar cases (not just court cases) so you have the ability to fight back when you get an LBC or an MCOL in the post

    @ fruitcake

    I dont thik SEEL st car park has anything to do with the cinema, thats a side issue and doesnt really matter why he was there or who he was waiting for or where they were

    the word NEARBY would suffice
    Last edited by Redx; 14-08-2017 at 9:44 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • robathandr
    • By robathandr 14th Aug 17, 9:37 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    robathandr
    • #4
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:37 PM
    • #4
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:37 PM
    what about the fact that I was charged £1.50 and received a ticket that is invalid and so completely worthless - isn't that against the sale of goods act in some way ?
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 14th Aug 17, 9:46 PM
    • 10,203 Posts
    • 9,348 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    • #5
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:46 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:46 PM
    You won't win with PPCs or their trade associations who will support them unless they really drop a clanger.

    But in a real court there is every chance that you might get a more reasonable judge (no guarantee though).

    A very good point would be that the system should not dispense tickets that would not be valid in the UK.

    Now 3 digits are valid (ST1 for example) but 3 letters? I don't think so. At least the system should ask for confirmation if registration is correct.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 14th Aug 17, 9:49 PM
    • 866 Posts
    • 976 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    • #6
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:49 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:49 PM
    They'll claim their contract lets them charge you. Utterly crazy of course. A simple mistake like that should not result in a massive penalty

    And it is a penalty. For sure. BEAVIS assists the defendant here.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Aug 17, 9:50 PM
    • 16,567 Posts
    • 20,720 Thanks
    Redx
    • #7
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:50 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:50 PM
    as detailed in this case here

    http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/excel-lose-peel-centre-casemotorist-not.html

    it was a strong point used by that defendant

    and the fact the parking company got their pound of flesh and were not defrauded in any way

    I seem to remember another one where the argument was that the PPC had accepted payment and therefore accepted the new contract based on the information fed into the machine

    cant remember the legal terms or if it was again at the peel centre, as people fail on there daily

    as mentioned above, its a "penalty" (because the actual parking charge was paid , in cash) for a driver not jumping through all the traps set by the PPC , WHEREAS IF THEY EMPLOYED SOMEBODY TO PUT IN THE DETAILS AND TAKE THE MONEY they wouldnt have this problm

    in this day and age , the ticket machines should be linked to the cameras and only allow correct details, or offer the nearest match and ask if it is the correct VRM before accepting the money
    Last edited by Redx; 14-08-2017 at 9:53 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • wealdroam
    • By wealdroam 14th Aug 17, 9:53 PM
    • 18,650 Posts
    • 15,552 Thanks
    wealdroam
    • #8
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:53 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:53 PM
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4788348/Pensioner-s-100-car-park-fine-despite-paying-CORRECT-fee.html
    • Redx
    • By Redx 14th Aug 17, 10:08 PM
    • 16,567 Posts
    • 20,720 Thanks
    Redx
    • #9
    • 14th Aug 17, 10:08 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Aug 17, 10:08 PM
    and the echo version with video

    http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/pensioners-fury-after-being-hit-13470669
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 14th Aug 17, 10:53 PM
    • 655 Posts
    • 1,244 Thanks
    Johnersh
    I'd argue no breach of contract as the 3 letters were sufficient to

    I. uniquely identify your vehicle
    II to prevent the transfer of tickets between vehicles.
    III to "marry up" the list of players with registrations of cars entering at that time

    Does the signage say full registration or just registration was required?

    There is no financial loss at all, so this is clearly a penalty. The issue of unconscionable charge could bite (distinguishing Beavis) on the basis that parking eye will need to go to court and admit no parking error, no financial loss, but still seek £100.

    It's disproportionate (in terms of penalty, legal cost and court resource). So I'd like to see it go to trial
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 14th Aug 17, 11:49 PM
    • 51,537 Posts
    • 65,144 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Also discussed here, where I had a bit of a rant on your behalf:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?p=72985734#post72985734

    Blame Lord Cheeseburger and co., for their terrible decision in 2015, which was in a case nothing like yours, but PE use the Beavis case EVERY TIME, anyway, to railroad POPLA (bet they did?!).

    Complain to your MP.

    If you get a small claim, don't write your own defence. Come back and we will help you.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • robathandr
    • By robathandr 15th Aug 17, 6:15 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    robathandr
    when you are all saying this a a 'penalty' - is this as opposed to a fine and what is the difference ?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 15th Aug 17, 6:18 PM
    • 51,537 Posts
    • 65,144 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    None.

    Penalties and fines cannot be recovered under contract law. But this is neither, it's a parking charge.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • waamo
    • By waamo 15th Aug 17, 6:21 PM
    • 2,095 Posts
    • 2,501 Thanks
    waamo
    It was never a fine. A fine is something given by a court for a criminal matter. This is an invoice that is unpaid as as such is a contractual matter.

    Under English contract laws a penalty is only allowed in very specific circumstances. The case law is known as "Beavis" after Barry Beavis who tested this in the Supreme Court. His case was against Parking Eye interestingly enough.

    Your circumstances appear to differ greatly from Beavis and it looks unlikely it meets the strict criteria laid down in that case.
    This space for hire.
    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 15th Aug 17, 7:45 PM
    • 7,382 Posts
    • 6,425 Thanks
    The Deep
    Mr Beavis overstayed and ignored letters, you paid and did not. If they try to use Beavis shoot it down.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • robathandr
    • By robathandr 16th Aug 17, 12:46 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    robathandr
    I have now found out who the landowner is - any ideas of what are the salient points I should put on my letter to the landowner regarding my PCN - is there a template letter on this website I could use ?
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 16th Aug 17, 6:19 PM
    • 655 Posts
    • 1,244 Thanks
    Johnersh
    On a separate point, can I commend the ICO Code of Conduct for surveillance. Some interesting points arise from use of Automated Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) - see section 7.1. and in particular this:

    When storing the information and cross referencing it with other
    databases to identify individuals, you will need to ensure that these
    databases are kept up-to-date and accurate and are of sufficient quality
    to prevent mismatches
    So if the camera takes your personal data (registration) and stores it to then cross reference with the registrations inputted, might it be argued that

    (i) an accurate, quality system would be able to marry up the 3 letters that were inputted?
    (ii) that to require more than 3 letters was, in any event, to process more personal data than reasonably required to check for payment

    I suspect that they would struggle to prove that at the same time as the parking event there were multiple vehicles with the same 3 last letters.
    • robathandr
    • By robathandr 16th Aug 17, 8:43 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    robathandr
    as there were only;y about 15 other cars in the car park the chances of even one other car having the last 3 letters are pretty slim - thanks for that - nice one
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 16th Aug 17, 9:12 PM
    • 1,056 Posts
    • 677 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    the private parking industry deliberately set people up to fail
    It is one of the few "businesses", where worse equipment ( unreliable, difficult to use ) can increase revenue.
    • robathandr
    • By robathandr 12th Sep 17, 8:16 PM
    • 7 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    robathandr
    Have received 'Letter before County Court Claim'
    I posted a few weeks back with my parking problem with Parking Eye

    and today received a 'letter before county court claim' from Parking Eye

    If you guys can help with how to respond to this I would be most grateful.

    Just a quick update on what I have done since my last post. I did write to my local MP Mr Justin Matters regarding my problem with Parking Eye and he has been most helpful and supportive and yesterday I received a copy of a letter he wrote to Parking Eye basically saying that their machines are unfit for purpose and are taking advantage of users who are not familiar with them and asking Parking Eye to rescind my fine. Today I got the letter from Parking Eye !
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