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  • FIRST POST
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 14th Aug 17, 8:57 AM
    • 20Posts
    • 14Thanks
    PaulTurner
    Elite Management Midlands Ltd
    • #1
    • 14th Aug 17, 8:57 AM
    Elite Management Midlands Ltd 14th Aug 17 at 8:57 AM
    Hi all,
    I've read through the Newbies section so I'm just looking for clarification before I do anything else:

    I received my PCN stuck to my windscreen on 9th August after visiting a friends flat. I actually watched him do it, he waled straight through the car park and put the ticket on, without checking any other cars! Anyways...

    1 - I've checked and EMM Ltd are a member of BPA.

    2 - As it's a company car, I am appealing NOW, not waiting for the 21-26 days.

    3 - I will be emailing EMM (no on-line form to fill out on their website) the following:

    Dear Sir,

    Parking Charge Notice [mine]: Vehicle Registration [mine]

    I refer to the above-detailed Parking Charge Notice (“PCN”) issued to me by Elite Management Ltd (“EMM”) as a Notice to Hirer. I confirm that as the hirer of this vehicle, I am its keeper for the purpose of the corresponding definition under Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (“POFA”) and I write to formally challenge the validity of this PCN.

    You will no doubt be familiar with the strict requirements of Schedule 4 of POFA to be followed in order for a parking operator to be able to invoke keeper liability for a Parking Charge. There are a number of reasons why EMMs Notice to Hirer did not comply with POFA; in order that you may understand why, I suggest that you carefully study the details of Paragraphs 13 and 14 of Schedule 4 in particular.

    Given that EMM has forfeited its right to keeper liability, please confirm that you shall now cancel this charge. Alternatively, should you choose to reject my challenge, please provide me with details of the Independent Appeals Service (POPLA), their contact details and a unique POPLA appeal reference so that I may escalate the matter to POPLA.

    Thank you for your cooperation and I look forward to receiving your response within the relevant timescales specified under the British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice.


    Yours faithfully,


    4 - EDIT - Provide my name and address so they can deal with me direct rather than DVLA / my employer.

    Thanks all,
    Paul
    Last edited by PaulTurner; 14-08-2017 at 9:40 AM.
Page 1
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 14th Aug 17, 9:04 AM
    • 40,304 Posts
    • 80,504 Thanks
    Fruitcake
    • #2
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:04 AM
    • #2
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:04 AM
    They will need the name and address of the keeper otherwise they will get it from the DVLA which you don't want them to do.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 14th Aug 17, 9:27 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    • #3
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:27 AM
    • #3
    • 14th Aug 17, 9:27 AM
    OK - I got confused with something else I read then. So just add my name and address to the bottom of that? Our HR department just pays these things by default even when you tell them not too!

    Many thanks!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Aug 17, 10:41 AM
    • 14,573 Posts
    • 22,931 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #4
    • 14th Aug 17, 10:41 AM
    • #4
    • 14th Aug 17, 10:41 AM
    @OP - you haven't had a Notice to Hirer (NtH), you've had a Notice to Driver (NtD), a windscreen ticket. Until they write to the hire company (28-56 days after the parking incident) they will have no idea that this is a hire car. It's only when the hire company respond to them naming you (or maybe your company) and EMM then issue a NtH (or more likely, in error, a NtK) will you be in any position to question the validity of their paperwork.

    You have a choice:

    1. ignore this and let them send a NtK to the hire company, in order for you to ultimately have a shot at their paperwork, but there are risks that a) the hire company pay it and send you the bill (plus a tasty admin charge) or b) send to your company, and they pay it, or c) what if their NtH and associated documentation is all correct?

    Or,

    2. You respond to EMM as the day to day keeper, as you would if it was your own car, and then deal with it via POPLA. Send your appeal, using the standard blue text template around day 26.

    Dealing with it as the Hirer should really only be the strategy if you have received a Notice to Hirer after the hire company has already been involved (with the inherent risks as above). .
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 14th Aug 17, 12:49 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    • #5
    • 14th Aug 17, 12:49 PM
    • #5
    • 14th Aug 17, 12:49 PM
    @OP - you haven't had a Notice to Hirer (NtH), you've had a Notice to Driver (NtD), a windscreen ticket. Until they write to the hire company (28-56 days after the parking incident) they will have no idea that this is a hire car. It's only when the hire company respond to them naming you (or maybe your company) and EMM then issue a NtH (or more likely, in error, a NtK) will you be in any position to question the validity of their paperwork.

    You have a choice:

    1. ignore this and let them send a NtK to the hire company, in order for you to ultimately have a shot at their paperwork, but there are risks that a) the hire company pay it and send you the bill (plus a tasty admin charge) or b) send to your company, and they pay it, or c) what if their NtH and associated documentation is all correct?

    Or,

    2. You respond to EMM as the day to day keeper, as you would if it was your own car, and then deal with it via POPLA. Send your appeal, using the standard blue text template around day 26.

    Dealing with it as the Hirer should really only be the strategy if you have received a Notice to Hirer after the hire company has already been involved (with the inherent risks as above). .
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Thank you for pointing that out. I will do Option 2.

    So I do nothing until day 26, and then send this and put my name and address as the keeper at the bottom?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Aug 17, 1:01 PM
    • 14,573 Posts
    • 22,931 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #6
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:01 PM
    • #6
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:01 PM
    That's the one. As long as they offer an online/email appeal facility (should be shown on the windscreen ticket you've received) then day 26 should be OK. If it's a 'snail mail' job, then a day or so earlier, but you must get a free 'Certificate of Posting' from your Post Office counter clerk. Do not send 'Signed For/Recorded'.

    The timing of your initial appeal will hopefully start them corresponding directly with you, not contact the DVLA for keeper data which, in your case, will have a double benefit - they will have no idea that this is a hire car and will keep them away from the hire company, and by not contacting the DVLA for keeper data, they cannot issue a fully compliant NtK as required by PoFA, and you'll get POPLA to confirm that EMM have no right to pursue you.

    All in due course .....
    Last edited by Umkomaas; 14-08-2017 at 1:06 PM.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 14th Aug 17, 1:15 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    • #7
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:15 PM
    • #7
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:15 PM
    Yes they state that appeals should be in writing or email, and they have an email address.

    So I don't appeal now. I do it on Monday 4th September as that's day 26. That way, they then contact me direct rather than DVLA.

    Think I got it now!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 14th Aug 17, 1:25 PM
    • 14,573 Posts
    • 22,931 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #8
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:25 PM
    • #8
    • 14th Aug 17, 1:25 PM
    That's correct. Hopefully this keeps them away from the DVLA (and therefore away from the hire company). You will also need to not rush your POPLA appeal as you won't want to give EMM any clue as to your tactics. They do have up to 56 days to contact the DVLA and issue a NtK.

    EMM have 35 days to deal with your initial appeal, and if they take the bulk of that to respond (as most do), they're getting ever nearer the 56 day precipice. When you get your POPLA code, you will need to work out your dates. If EMM respond quickly, the longer you need to delay your POPLA appeal.

    Hope that makes sense?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 14th Aug 17, 2:29 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    • #9
    • 14th Aug 17, 2:29 PM
    • #9
    • 14th Aug 17, 2:29 PM
    Yes it does thank you. I was just concerned / confused with the line in the newbie thread that stated

    "If you are not the registered keeper - e.g. a hire/company/lease car - see asterisk below and appeal EARLY. *"

    so I just wanted to make sure I was on the right track!
    • Longman Bevan
    • By Longman Bevan 17th Aug 17, 3:29 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    Longman Bevan
    Parking Charge Notice - Wrong Reg
    I recently parked on 3rd floor of Asda carpark Walsall (12/08/17) and did not obtain a ticket as I was unaware of the parking charges above floors 1 & 2 and didn't see any signs advertising charges. On returning to my vehicle I found a Parking Charge Notice from Elite Management (Midlands) Ltd but on checking they have written incorrectly my car registration number. I have looked at your Newbies thread and also checked that they are a member of the BPA and note that they have no ANPR, no back office, no debt recovery but do have self ticket and ticket. Not sure if a pic was taken of my car on entering the car park, but I am a little confused as to what I should do for the best as only some of the details on the blue letter re PCN's applies to me. Any advise would be most appreciated.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Aug 17, 3:32 PM
    • 32,808 Posts
    • 16,839 Thanks
    Quentin
    Don't attempt to hijack someone else's thread.

    Everyone is politely asked to read the newbies FAQ thread near the top of the forum before starting a new thread

    After reading there start your own thread if you have any questions
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 17th Aug 17, 3:32 PM
    • 1,481 Posts
    • 2,763 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    @Longman Bevan - start your own thread as it is confusing to have multiple issues.

    @PaulTurner Elite are now in the IPC having jumped on 14th. All their August tickets are being routed through DCBL who are offering only IPC and not BPA rules so be careful. Unlikely you'll get a POPLA code as they won't offer it.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 18th Aug 17, 7:32 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    @Longman Bevan - start your own thread as it is confusing to have multiple issues.

    @PaulTurner Elite are now in the IPC having jumped on 14th. All their August tickets are being routed through DCBL who are offering only IPC and not BPA rules so be careful. Unlikely you'll get a POPLA code as they won't offer it.
    Originally posted by IamEmanresu
    So what do I do now then?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 18th Aug 17, 7:50 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,477 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    respond to EMM as the day to day keeper, as you would if it was your own car. Send your appeal, using the standard blue text template
    As before, only I would bring forward the appeal to day 20 if by email/online, and even earlier if the PCN only 'offers' appeal by post. You don't want to be accused of appealing 'late' and a lot of PPC firms only allow 21 day (I know the PCN says 28 but protect your position by appealing well within day 20).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 18th Aug 17, 8:45 PM
    • 32,808 Posts
    • 16,839 Thanks
    Quentin
    @ OP


    If you have inadvertently used your real name as your forum name you need to get MSE to change it to something anonymous


    The PPCs monitor this forum and can use your thread against you
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 24th Aug 17, 5:40 AM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    Given the Bank Holiday I'm going to send my appeal via email today, it'll be 15 days since the date of issue. Hope that's OK?

    Just very confused now with the comment added about the IPC / BPA thing!
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 24th Aug 17, 7:16 AM
    • 1,481 Posts
    • 2,763 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Just very confused now with the comment added about the IPC / BPA thing!
    If they were BPA members on 9th, they have to hold to BPA rules which is a POPLA code on rejection. If no POPLA code is forthcoming, all you can do is to complain to the BPA who cannot do anything as Elite are no longer members and therefore cannot be sanctioned.

    If this does happen, then you go to the DVLA as Elite cannot escape a DVLA sanction.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 25th Aug 17, 4:06 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    I am submitting the following today:

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,

    Name and Address as the day to day keeper.

    Hopefully it'll go to plan!
    • PaulTurner
    • By PaulTurner 16th Sep 17, 4:31 PM
    • 20 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    PaulTurner
    So, I've had a response to the above.

    It's an email back saying the following woth lots of pictures of the signage, that were taken on several dates, but not the date that the "offence" took place on. The letter I've had states:

    13th September 2017
    Dear Sir/Madam
    Parking Charge Notice:00000
    Location: XXXXXXXXXX
    Date of Issue: 09/08/17
    Further to your correspondence received on 25/08/17 we cannot investigate your appeal any further.
    I note, you do not wish to disclose the driver on the day in question therefore, your parking charge notice
    will be passed to our appointed service agent whom will then obtain keeper details. You may be requested
    to disclose driver details under the Protection of Freedoms Act. – Copy enclosed.
    In terms of the points raised within your appeal, I enclose photographic evidence showing signage on site
    which is not insufficient and warns all motorists of the contract you agree to adhere too once leaving your
    vehicle parked on site.
    No further correspondence shall be made unless you wish to appeal the above parking charge notice with
    mitigation as opposed to an internet template.
    Should the parking charge notice remain unpaid then it shall be passed to our appointed parking service
    agent where charges may be added.
    Yours faithfully
    Appeals Dept
    Elite Management (Midlands) Ltd

    What are the next steps now as there is no POPLA?

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Sep 17, 4:50 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,477 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Dear Elite,

    The BPA tell me you were required to act under their Code of Practice at the time of the parking event. Where's my POPLA code and why are you denying the right of a registered keeper to appeal, and suggesting that appeals cannot be considered without the driver's name, and telling me that appeals have to be based upon mitigation?

    This is all lies so I have copied in Mr Dunford (DVLA) and Mr Clark (BPA) to add weight to my right for a POPLA code to be provided in your rejection letter. You and your ilk are an embarrassment to your gutter-dwelling industry.

    Try again - POPLA code please.

    yours,


    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    steve.c@britishparking.co.uk
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 16-09-2017 at 4:53 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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