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  • FIRST POST
    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 9th Aug 17, 4:26 PM
    • 16Posts
    • 15Thanks
    PKandF
    CP Plus Windscreen Ticket Meadowhall
    • #1
    • 9th Aug 17, 4:26 PM
    CP Plus Windscreen Ticket Meadowhall 9th Aug 17 at 4:26 PM
    Hello all,

    I realise that there is another thread regarding a similar matter being discussed, however I am seeking advice regarding the opening stages of appeal rather than a court case. Hopefully things don't get that far!

    Below is a windscreen ticked received from CP Plus at Meadowhall, Sheffield.

    Pictures of NTD:
    Front: i.cubeupload.com/FRgGGF.jpg
    Back: i.cubeupload.com/N4QEry.jpg

    I've had a read through the NEWBIES thread, and am approaching the day in which the blue text will be sent.

    My initial question would be whether I can expand on the POFA 2012 compliance, or lack of in this case. I found the following appeal to a Highview postal PCN below:

    I am appealing as the keeper and ONLY Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence of who was driving) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed to be the liable party. The PCN makes no attempt to pass liability to the keeper after 28 days. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured.

    There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person. As the keeper of the vehicle, it is my right to choose not to name the driver, yet still not be lawfully held liable if an operator is not using or complying with Schedule 4.

    This exact finding was made in 6061796103 against ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found: ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''


    It is my understanding from reading the forum that CP Plus, like Highview, do not rely on the POFA in any form, however the above was in response to a postal PCN rather than the windscreen NTD received in this case. Would it help or hinder my cause to add this to my initial appeal?

    Apologies if I have started this thread too early in the process. Unfortunately there have been a few of these ridiculous things issued, and ideally I would like to squash them tout-de-suite.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Aug 17, 4:34 PM
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 9th Aug 17, 4:34 PM
    • #2
    • 9th Aug 17, 4:34 PM
    that looks like a popla decision

    find and use a recent amended blue text template that includes a POFA2012 failure paragraph added (as keeper) , appealing around day 25 , as keeper
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 9th Aug 17, 4:46 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    PKandF
    • #3
    • 9th Aug 17, 4:46 PM
    • #3
    • 9th Aug 17, 4:46 PM
    that looks like a popla decision

    find and use a recent amended blue text template that includes a POFA2012 failure paragraph added (as keeper) , appealing around day 25 , as keeper
    Originally posted by Redx
    Thanks, I take it that the most recent template is the one seen in the newbies thread first post?

    If so, I'll crack on with that one. It'll probably end up at POPLA anyway in which case I'll be sure to hammer home the POFA point to them.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Aug 17, 4:54 PM
    • 16,483 Posts
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    Redx
    • #4
    • 9th Aug 17, 4:54 PM
    • #4
    • 9th Aug 17, 4:54 PM
    yes it is

    but see and use post #12 in this recent thread (like I said, its all here if you look)

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5684787
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 9th Aug 17, 5:04 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    PKandF
    • #5
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:04 PM
    • #5
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:04 PM
    yes it is

    but see and use post #12 in this recent thread (like I said, its all here if you look)
    Originally posted by Redx
    Forgive me if I'm being stupid, but with regards to the extra line:
    "Furthermore, as the PCN did not arrive within the stipulate period of 14 days, as specified within the POFA 2012, you have failed to meet the strict deadlines to transfer liability to the keeper. "

    I was under the impression that 14 days was for a Postal PCN, and for a windscreen ticket it was 28-56 days? I'm not quite within those timescales yet and only have the NTD.
    Last edited by PKandF; 09-08-2017 at 5:09 PM.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Aug 17, 5:08 PM
    • 16,483 Posts
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    Redx
    • #6
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:08 PM
    • #6
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:08 PM
    correct

    you have confused me by posting a popla appeal decision, where POFA2012 came into play

    use the NEWBIES sticky thread "as is" for a windscreen ticket around day 25

    at the moment this has nothing to do with POFA2012 because they have not failed the day 29 to day 56 part YET !!
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 9th Aug 17, 5:12 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    PKandF
    • #7
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:12 PM
    • #7
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:12 PM
    correct

    you have confused me by posting a popla appeal decision, where POFA2012 came into play

    use the NEWBIES sticky thread "as is" for a windscreen ticket around day 25

    at the moment this has nothing to do with POFA2012 because they have not failed the day 29 to day 56 part YET !!
    Originally posted by Redx
    Ah I see! Sorry for the confusion, I'll follow your advice and crack right on!
    • Redx
    • By Redx 9th Aug 17, 5:16 PM
    • 16,483 Posts
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    Redx
    • #8
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:16 PM
    • #8
    • 9th Aug 17, 5:16 PM
    think of this as a hurdle race, take each hurdle one at a time, you got ahead of yourself and confused both yourself and me and could have easily lost the race due to dropping tha baton

    just stick to the script, its easier all round
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 8th Sep 17, 3:29 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    PKandF
    • #9
    • 8th Sep 17, 3:29 PM
    • #9
    • 8th Sep 17, 3:29 PM
    So today I received my rejection e-mail from CP-PLUS (as expected), with a POPLA code etc. so will begin work on this ASAP. However, there was a part of this e-mail that was very peculiar indeed.

    "The PCN was issued because your vehicle was not parked in the correct designated car park. CP Plus has received a confirmation from the Area Manager at Meadowhall confirming that you are a current member of staff at Meadowhall. Please find attached images which were captured when the contravention was issued . It is the driver’s responsibiltiy to ensure that as a staff member at Meadowhall , to park in the staff car park at all times when visiting the centre."

    The bolded statement above is absolutely absurd. As the registered keeper, I have never at any point been a staff member at Meadowhall. The car in question is registered to park in the staff car park under a different driver's name not mentioned once in any correspondence to CP PLUS. Even so, this is surely a mockery of data protection is it not?
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 8th Sep 17, 3:58 PM
    • 51,452 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    The bolded statement above is absolutely absurd. As the registered keeper, I have never at any point been a staff member at Meadowhall. The car in question is registered to park in the staff car park under a different driver's name not mentioned once in any correspondence to CP PLUS. Even so, this is surely a mockery of data protection is it not?
    Yes! Grab them by the jugular!

    See PinkLady0805's thread for action to take about this data breach. Your case is a MUST for an ICO complaint, carefully worded to explain in words of one syllable to the ICO what the data breach is here, and the significant distress caused to the staff members whose work records are being shared with third parties.

    Albeit: the ICO complaint must come from the STAFF MEMBER, it's their data (work records) shared with CP Plus and YOU, without their consent!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 08-09-2017 at 4:01 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 8th Sep 17, 4:16 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    PKandF
    Thanks coupon-mad!

    A brief look at the ICO suggested I should contact the organisation, which prior to this I had not done, as others I have seen have not had a great deal of success this way.

    With this in mind, do you think it would be prudent to e-mail the senior figures at British Land to elicit their response?

    Also, would it be useful to cite this in the POPLA appeal?
    Last edited by PKandF; 08-09-2017 at 6:04 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Sep 17, 1:11 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    Yes to all of the above.

    So to start the ICO complaint off, the staff member - not you - needs to write to Meadowhall and British Land, to object to the processing and sharing of their private employment data with two third parties (the parking firm and you - regardless of family relationship, it is unwarranted use of that data), which has caused and is continuing to cause, significant distress.

    They should describe their own letter as a DPA Section 10 notice, stating that the use of their private employment data is in flagrant breach of the DPA principles, is wholly unjustified and he/she requires them to cease and desist and to tell their agents (the PPC) to delete the data about the employee.

    Finish by saying they require a reply within 21 days, after which a formal complaint will be lodged with the Information Commissioner.

    At least you have a POPLA code, unlike some, so meanwhile, you (the keeper) can also work on that.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-09-2017 at 1:13 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RobinofLoxley
    • By RobinofLoxley 9th Sep 17, 1:57 PM
    • 160 Posts
    • 267 Thanks
    RobinofLoxley
    I heard from a friend that a friend of theirs who works at Meadowhall said the Centre management was going round all the shops/outlets and asking the manager of each one to supply a list of their employees and their car registrations numbers.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 9th Sep 17, 6:52 PM
    • 51,452 Posts
    • 65,047 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I heard from a friend that a friend of theirs who works at Meadowhall said the Centre management was going round all the shops/outlets and asking the manager of each one to supply a list of their employees and their car registrations numbers.
    Originally posted by RobinofLoxley
    Errrrrmmm...this gets worse. That's terrible, surely a massive DPA breach...

    That needs alleging in the ICO complaints, stating that this happened and Meadowhall need to explain their actions to the ICO.

    We've not seen good outcomes in some ICO complaints and they don't seem to get this industry, and I think there is a danger the ICO will assume that ALL PPCs can have 'keeper liability' and muddy the waters about the data being 'necessary'.

    The complaints to the ICO need to explain in words of on syllable, that:

    - CP Plus don't use POFA-compliant NTKs,

    - CP Plus can ONLY hold the driver liable

    - and that may well not be the same person a the keeper

    - who may well not be the same person as the Meadowhall Employee,

    - who may well not have contravened the rules at all on the material dates, nor even been there!
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 09-09-2017 at 6:57 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 10th Sep 17, 7:48 PM
    • 16 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    PKandF
    A small update, I have been sent a screenshot of the vehicle registration facility used by staff members to register their cars for staff parking. Take note of the text at the bottom.

    http://i.cubeupload.com/Q9X5CS.jpg
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 10th Sep 17, 11:17 PM
    • 51,452 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    Even better. A disclaimer that means nothing and they haven't adhered to; clearly they have no idea.

    But do be aware that the staff member needs to explain quite a lot to the ICO, as we have seen them not understand the nuances of a non-POFA PCN before.

    Rather like Honest John of the Telegraph who just (ASTONISHINGLY) told a keeper that were ''liable to pay the fine'' when not driving, sigh:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115684

    I think they might otherwise think, that a keeper's data is fair game/can be assumed to be the driver. Needs to be addressed in words of one syllable and quotes from Schedule 4, and explaining that this data has not only been shared inappropriately with Meadowhall staff and an agent, CP Plus, but also then repeated to the registered keeper of the car (you) a different person entirely.

    Show us the staff member's planned complaint to these parties who are sharing his/her private data around like people borrowing books at a book club. That complaint (as you know) goes in and has to be exhausted before the ICO complaint.

    And show us your POPLA appeal this month too.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 11-09-2017 at 12:29 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • PKandF
    • By PKandF 11th Sep 17, 12:21 AM
    • 16 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    PKandF
    Excellent stuff! I'm away for most of this coming week but after that it's full steam ahead with the above. I'll be sure to post them when they're ready.

    Thanks again for all your help!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 11th Sep 17, 12:32 AM
    • 51,452 Posts
    • 65,047 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Imagine this scenario, shows why this is a horrendous DPA breach:

    What if the driver was a woman just split last year from an abusive husband, and he is the keeper of the car (as they've not yet separated all their finances and she's in hiding with use of that car, maybe for the kids' transport, maybe she always did drive it). And she got a job at Meadowhall to make ends meet, but doesn't want Mr abusive git to know...

    And CP Plus write and tell him they've been told the driver works at Meadowhall! Nononono.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • RobinofLoxley
    • By RobinofLoxley 11th Sep 17, 5:07 PM
    • 160 Posts
    • 267 Thanks
    RobinofLoxley
    A small update, I have been sent a screenshot of the vehicle registration facility used by staff members to register their cars for staff parking. Take note of the text at the bottom.

    http://i.cubeupload.com/Q9X5CS.jpg
    Originally posted by PKandF
    I like how their disclaimer says "Information and data provide will not be shared inappropriately with any external agency".

    That means it will be shared with whoever they think is appropriate!

    This Mallcomm app looks dodgy as well. It allows the management of the centre and the retail managers to track who's (staff) logged on and what they're up to. Another 3rd party with access to your data.

    If I worked there I definitely would not give Meadowhall any info about myself or my vehicle VRM. It would mean no access to the staff car park but also no ridiculous PCN's for simply visiting to shop, have a meal or go to the cinema etc.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 12th Sep 17, 1:33 AM
    • 51,452 Posts
    • 65,047 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    IMHO, Meadowhall employees should simply make up a VRN. Never give your real one.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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