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  • FIRST POST
    • keepthelinguini
    • By keepthelinguini 9th Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 3Thanks
    keepthelinguini
    High Income Child Benefit Charge
    • #1
    • 9th Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    High Income Child Benefit Charge 9th Aug 17 at 2:42 PM
    I'm so annoyed. I've just received a big bill from HMRC and been told I'm going to pay a penalty, and I think it's completely unjust.

    I'm a PAYE employee.

    In 2013 when the High Income Child Benefit Charge was introduced I earned under the £50,000 threshold - so the change in rules didn't apply to me.

    Since then my income has gone slightly over £50,000.

    I've just received a bill for well over £1k for missed HICBC in the two years ending 2015 and 2016. I called them to query, and they said I should have registered for self assessment when my income went over £50k, and that I'll be charged a penalty on top of the amount I owe - around £250 - for failing to notify them.

    HOW was I supposed to know I need to start filling out a tax return when my income went above £50k?

    I'm planning to appeal the penalty, but the lady in the call centre told me that it would fail because you can't claim ignorance of the rules.

    IT'S SO UNJUST!

    If anyone has any advice, I'd be very pleased to hear it.
Page 5
    • Swifty75
    • By Swifty75 26th Nov 17, 11:36 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Swifty75
    No I didn't realise. I had payed through PAYE for 20 years before. I asked my wife if the payments had been reduced and she said they had. They had not. As I say I have paid back the tax, I believe in paying what is owed, and have always endeavoured to do so. The penalties are a bit rich, given that if I was doing something wrong I am more than willing to rectify my behaviour if told in a timely manner. I will now fill in the self assessment and join the millions using any loophole to avoid tax. I have even got an accountant looking at it who thinks he can reclaim more in the last 5 years than I have had in child benefit! I would rather not and pay what is due, but the stupid system has driven me to it. From now on every penny is a prisoner between HMRC and me!!!
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 26th Nov 17, 9:58 PM
    • 7,373 Posts
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    dori2o
    https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-tax-charge/pay-the-charge

    If you can’t get information from your partner or ex-partner
    You can write to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) to ask whether your partner or ex-partner gets Child Benefit or has a higher adjusted net income than you. HMRC will reply ‘yes’ or ‘no’ - they won’t give you any financial information.

    You can only ask for this information if you and your partner either live together, or separated within the tax year you want information for.


    It seems to me that financial information (even if limited) is being supplied?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    The information being given is not how much is being received, only whether or not you are living in a household which is receiving Child benefit.

    The information you get from the request provides no details of who the person is that is in receipt of child benefit, nor how much is received.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 26th Nov 17, 10:28 PM
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    dori2o
    Not sure why anyone would ignore it?

    I certainly didn't, if they had told me that I had made an error in 12/13 I would have sorted it. To wait 6 tax years then tell me, then impose penalties, is bad not only for me but the taxpayer. As I say I have paid tax for 20 years and believe we should pay what is due, I have never avoided or evaded tax, when at times I could have. This is a situation that HMRC admitted to me on the phone was in part their own making.
    Originally posted by Swifty75
    Where do you get 6 tax years from if the issue is for 12/13?

    The information for 12/13 should have been notified on that years tax return which had a due date of 31 January 2014, so at the very most it's just over 3 years. However, it makes absolutely no difference to the fact that YOU and YOU alone are responsible for paying the correct amount of tax. HMRC have NEVER been responsible for ensuring that you are paying the right amount, only that you have paid the right amount and that any balances outstanding are paid.

    The media campaign regarding this was massive.

    It was discussed at length on several threads, in several sections of this and hundreds of other forums. There was a newsnight special dedicated to it. It was discussed for weeks on Questiontime, it was covered in every tabloid and broadsheet in the country, it was discussed on every political based tv show and radio program, HMRC sent out letters to those identified as having income over £50,000 in the year previous asking the recipient of the letter to check if they were affected and telling them what to do. It also explained how to work out your income.

    The GOV. uk website provides all of the information needed regarding this.

    Anyone who claims they didnt see anything about it at the time is being rather economical with the truth, or simply didnt pay attention to it.

    The legislation on the issue of tax is clear, the responsibility lies with each individual, no matter if you are employed, self employed, retired, claiming benefits, a student, etc, etc.

    Just because a person is employed and their employer reports their earnings from that employment via PAYE does not, and never has meant that you have no responsibilities. Your employer merely provides details of the pay you receive, tax deducted on that pay, tax code used and details of any benefits in kind provided.

    If the tax being deducted is wrong because the tax code is wrong, or the employer is using the wrong code, or you start to receive other income, or you meet the requirements to fill in a tax return, your employer gives you a company car, you start to receive medical insurance from your employer, etc, etc, etc it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to sort those issues with HMRC and ensure that the correct tax is or starts to be paid.

    The days of HMRC holding everyones hand are over. People need to start understanding the basics of tax much better because more and more of the services the tax office currently offers will not be available in the future, and each individual will be expected to take far more responsibility for their own tax affairs via services such as the Personal tax account.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 27th Nov 17, 12:05 AM
    • 1,071 Posts
    • 1,141 Thanks
    badmemory
    What I don't get is if we are all totally responsible for our own tax affairs why we don't all have to file self assessment, instead of which we are actually being stopped from filing self assessment.

    How come HMRC now believes they know enough about my affairs to do it all themselves? I do understand that I will need to triple check their figures as I don't wish to get caught out with penalties. But if they know so much about my affairs why don't they also know about other peoples?
    • Swifty75
    • By Swifty75 27th Nov 17, 2:40 AM
    • 6 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    Swifty75
    I can remember that the changes to the payment of child benefit was massively unpopular, and that it was all over the press. What was not in the press was that I and many others should fill in a self assessment. Hmrc must have had the information and know how to link earnings and cb receipt, they do as they have caught up with me for an issue that began in 12/13 (6 tax years back). As I say I have paid the tax back, however hmrc are acting worse than a back street loan shark demanding penalties. I asked hmrc how I would fill in the self assessment with regard to receipt of child benefit if my wife would not tell me how much, if any, cb was being received. They told me that they did not know what I should do? Unfortunately it is not just myself who has been caught by this situation. There are many many more people who did not see the amazing multi billion pound Media campaign that had the taxman waving a self assessment form in front of my face saying 'if you do not fill one of these in we will fine you thousands of pounds'. Hmrc admitted over the phone to me, and I have it recorded, that it is a far from ideal situation to only start informing people in 17/18 about an issue from 12/13.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 29th Nov 17, 9:05 PM
    • 7,373 Posts
    • 12,281 Thanks
    dori2o
    I can remember that the changes to the payment of child benefit was massively unpopular, and that it was all over the press. What was not in the press was that I and many others should fill in a self assessment. Hmrc must have had the information and know how to link earnings and cb receipt, they do as they have caught up with me for an issue that began in 12/13 (6 tax years back). As I say I have paid the tax back, however hmrc are acting worse than a back street loan shark demanding penalties. I asked hmrc how I would fill in the self assessment with regard to receipt of child benefit if my wife would not tell me how much, if any, cb was being received. They told me that they did not know what I should do? Unfortunately it is not just myself who has been caught by this situation. There are many many more people who did not see the amazing multi billion pound Media campaign that had the taxman waving a self assessment form in front of my face saying 'if you do not fill one of these in we will fine you thousands of pounds'. Hmrc admitted over the phone to me, and I have it recorded, that it is a far from ideal situation to only start informing people in 17/18 about an issue from 12/13.
    Originally posted by Swifty75
    To be brutally honest, it's not HMRC's fault that you and your spouse dont communicate well with each other.

    The issue of how much child benefit your wife received is a complete and utter red herring. All you need to know is how many children you have that were eligible to be included on a Child Benefit claim.

    The amounts of child benefit are published on the gov. uk website should you need them.

    The reason why HMRC can identify you have nothing at all to do with linking your record to the child benefit system. They are not and never have been linked.

    Hmrc receive a worklist from CBO, they cross reference that against the address on the claimants record and look for other people living in the household. Thats it.

    The fact HMRC have only come to you now means nothing.

    It is YOUR responsibility to know the rules.

    Nobody ever told me its illegal to take somebodies car without permission but I know its illegal.

    All of the information is available on the gov. uk website.

    It WAS notified in the press, on forums, on tv shows, on radio programms, by HMRC themselves in letters, by the government in the many many budget documents they produce that this was the process.

    It's time that people realised that tax is their own responsibility to deal with, even if they are employed it is still the individuals responsibility to ensure the correct amount is paid, and the correct information/submissions are made within the correct timescales.

    If you disagree with the penalties then appeal/object. Take it to the commissioners, take it to the courts, etc etc.

    I personally wouldnt say your chances are very high of success but thats your options. Its not going to change the fact that what has happened has happened, and no matter how many times you claim to not have known about it, it wont change the fact that the information has been out there since 2013.


    Finally, no matter how many times you say it, it's not something that happened 6 years ago. This policy started in January 2013. Taxpayers had until 5 October 2013 to notify HMRC that they would be affected, with the first tax return due 31 January 2014.

    HMRC have issued the penalties in the main because it was they who discovered that these people had a duty to notify HMRC and complete a tax return but had still not done so. Had you notified HMRC, even if notification was after 5 October 2013, and tax return submitted after 31 January 2014, then its unlikely that penalties would have been issued, and only the interest would have been payable on top of the liability.


    As Ive said many times before, people need to start getting used to dealing with tax on their own as there are many changes coming which put even more responsibility on the taxpayer that they have not had in the past.

    As for your recorded phone call, it's worth nothing. It does not absolve you of your responsibilities.
    Last edited by dori2o; 29-11-2017 at 9:08 PM.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • beefturnmail
    • By beefturnmail 29th Nov 17, 9:24 PM
    • 628 Posts
    • 185 Thanks
    beefturnmail
    there are many changes coming which put even more responsibility on the taxpayer that they have not had in the past.
    Originally posted by dori2o
    Which kind of makes you wonder what do we pay our taxes for? Maybe we can get rid of HMRC since we are all going to be doing their job for them
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 29th Nov 17, 10:36 PM
    • 7,373 Posts
    • 12,281 Thanks
    dori2o
    Which kind of makes you wonder what do we pay our taxes for? Maybe we can get rid of HMRC since we are all going to be doing their job for them
    Originally posted by beefturnmail
    Thats tbe point though, it isnt HMRC's job to

    This is how your taxes are divied up according to UK Gov't

    https://goo.gl/images/rLaQvc

    Less than 0.6% of the estimated £690Bn of tax revenues this financial year will go to administering HMRC.

    You dont pay taxes just to fund HMRC.

    The idea behind making people more responsible for their own taxes, as well as it actually being each individuals responsibility anyway, is to a) reduce the number of staff in HMRC per the Government pledge in 2010, and b) to free up more staff into compliance based roles to further combat tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance, more staff to deal with none payment, none compliance. Thus providing the UK with more funds to run the country.

    More staff to deal with none compliance of NMW laws, ensuring that every employed person in the UK receives the salary that they are legally entitled to.

    By reducing the number of low value contacts, things that the taxpayer should be doing themselves, it means less waiting time on the phone, faster response times to post and online submissions, a better quality of service, better training for staff with fewer time restrictions in place enabling more staff tobe able to deal with more technical calls and correspondence.


    Thats only the visible taxes side, you then have customs, border protections, checking ports in the UK and Abroad for people trying to enter the country illegally, preventing illegal products from entering the country, preventing customs duty evasion, plus many many more services that are offerred.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 30th Nov 17, 6:32 PM
    • 1,071 Posts
    • 1,141 Thanks
    badmemory
    So why aren't they sending out a letter to ALL UK people (has to be all as they may miss some under 18s with taxable income) to tell them all to file self assessment? That is the only way to deal with HMRCs current problems. The only reason not to would be to deliberately attempt to catch people out & be able to charge them penalties.

    At least if everyone had to file self assessment then no-one could deny knowing what their responsibilities were.

    It seems at the moment that they want to stop people filing self assessment but still hold them responsible as if they had done. It's easier to do a job yourself than to check someone else's work.
    • enke
    • By enke 13th Dec 17, 10:28 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    enke
    URGENT advice please
    Would be grateful for advice plz.

    Believe it or not, I am genuinely one of those who does not recall hearing about this change, until I read it on a website in the last couple of days. I agree I must have had my head buried in everything else in my life, that it completely passed me by.

    What do I do now?

    Presumably I need to contact them, stop the payments ASAP, and figure out a way to pay them back.

    I reckon for the first year it was introduced I might have been just under the 50K (that's net income right?), but I know i'm certainly over it since then.

    Now I have not received any letters yet, but would much rather deal with this before I receive one.

    Will I still pay a penalty? Will it be reduced if I am the one contacting them?

    I have filled in a self assessment once in my life, and when I asked the following year, was told I didn't need to, as I was on PAYE> I have always been on PAYE. Sadly, I am one of those who is not very clued up with taxes (clearly to my detriment!).

    Advice much appreciated... I am seriously sh**ting it right now!!!
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 13th Dec 17, 10:41 PM
    • 23,695 Posts
    • 13,810 Thanks
    xylophone
    See https://www.gov.uk/child-benefit-tax-charge

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2013/sep/28/child-benefit-pension-contributions-higher-earners
    • Dazed and confused
    • By Dazed and confused 13th Dec 17, 10:44 PM
    • 1,990 Posts
    • 897 Thanks
    Dazed and confused
    What do you mean by "net income"? After tax and NI??

    Anyhow it's not net income its Adjusted Net Income which matters for the Child Benefit charge. This is a very specific calculation which you can find on gov.uk if you Google it.

    You don't have to stop the payments. If your organised enough you could bank them, earn a bit of interest and then use the money to pay the tax charge. There are other things to consider so might be worth more research on this point.

    You will almost certainly have to pay interest for paying the charge late but fessing up may save you from penalties (or reduce the level of the penalty).
    • enke
    • By enke 13th Dec 17, 11:28 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    enke

    Thnx both. Yes, I've come across those websites since this dawned on me. I have figured out I can contact them and stop paying it. But the minute I do that, no doubt i will be hit with an inquiry and a huge bill.

    I'm (not complaining at all) over the 60K income bracket, so i'll essentially be getting nothing even if i do continue to claim and elect to pay back through tax. And i'm in sustained employment, so my understanding is that NI credits would only be reqd if i was unemployed or long term sick (have separate policy to cover this). So I'd much rather just get rid of this burden altogether.

    My main concern right now is how I minimise the size of the bill. I get the impression I will be told I should have started filling in SAs and it was my duty to know that, and will be hit with a penalty for that. But more or less 5 years of Child Benefit + Penalties + Tax is going to kill me!
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