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  • FIRST POST
    • keepthelinguini
    • By keepthelinguini 9th Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    • 5Posts
    • 3Thanks
    keepthelinguini
    High Income Child Benefit Charge
    • #1
    • 9th Aug 17, 2:42 PM
    High Income Child Benefit Charge 9th Aug 17 at 2:42 PM
    I'm so annoyed. I've just received a big bill from HMRC and been told I'm going to pay a penalty, and I think it's completely unjust.

    I'm a PAYE employee.

    In 2013 when the High Income Child Benefit Charge was introduced I earned under the £50,000 threshold - so the change in rules didn't apply to me.

    Since then my income has gone slightly over £50,000.

    I've just received a bill for well over £1k for missed HICBC in the two years ending 2015 and 2016. I called them to query, and they said I should have registered for self assessment when my income went over £50k, and that I'll be charged a penalty on top of the amount I owe - around £250 - for failing to notify them.

    HOW was I supposed to know I need to start filling out a tax return when my income went above £50k?

    I'm planning to appeal the penalty, but the lady in the call centre told me that it would fail because you can't claim ignorance of the rules.

    IT'S SO UNJUST!

    If anyone has any advice, I'd be very pleased to hear it.
Page 2
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 19th Sep 17, 6:21 PM
    • 1,063 Posts
    • 1,133 Thanks
    badmemory
    Try before 8 am.

    I have to say that I believe some HR departments are seriously failing here. They know that HMRC are refusing to notify people they know should be filing self assessment. A good HR/payroll dept could easily put a short message in the P60 envelope to remind their employees what they may need to do. It certainly isn't rocket science.

    We all must remember that the country is in dire need of people to pay these penalties & it helps HMRC get a little closer to their targets. I mean heaven forbid they should go for the likes of google, ordinary people are much easier targets.
    • Wayne O Mac
    • By Wayne O Mac 19th Sep 17, 7:56 PM
    • 211 Posts
    • 261 Thanks
    Wayne O Mac
    We all must remember that the country is in dire need of people to pay these penalties & it helps HMRC get a little closer to their targets. I mean heaven forbid they should go for the likes of google, ordinary people are much easier targets.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    You're an idiot.
    • bob bank spanker
    • By bob bank spanker 19th Sep 17, 8:03 PM
    • 538 Posts
    • 1,038 Thanks
    bob bank spanker
    You're an idiot.
    Originally posted by Wayne O Mac
    Why are they an idiot?
    • G4OJR
    • By G4OJR 21st Sep 17, 6:34 PM
    • 12 Posts
    • 1 Thanks
    G4OJR
    Nobody told me the Earth was round
    • EasyLay
    • By EasyLay 22nd Sep 17, 9:02 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 15 Thanks
    EasyLay
    Try before 8 am.

    I have to say that I believe some HR departments are seriously failing here. They know that HMRC are refusing to notify people they know should be filing self assessment. A good HR/payroll dept could easily put a short message in the P60 envelope to remind their employees what they may need to do. It certainly isn't rocket science.
    Originally posted by badmemory
    I agree. I eventually got through to someone using the telephone number (after over 20 attempts) so I'm sorting it out with them now.

    A reminder from HMRC/my employer at the time I exceeded the threshold would have been nice, given the fact that they get all the information they need via PAYE. It would have been better spending money on doing this rather than an advertising campaign. How much would it cost to trigger an automated email when a particular income level is exceeded? Nothing at all.
    • martinsurrey
    • By martinsurrey 22nd Sep 17, 11:14 AM
    • 3,225 Posts
    • 3,927 Thanks
    martinsurrey
    I agree. I eventually got through to someone using the telephone number (after over 20 attempts) so I'm sorting it out with them now.

    A reminder from HMRC/my employer at the time I exceeded the threshold would have been nice, given the fact that they get all the information they need via PAYE. It would have been better spending money on doing this rather than an advertising campaign. How much would it cost to trigger an automated email when a particular income level is exceeded? Nothing at all.
    Originally posted by EasyLay
    75% of the front page of the Child benefit application form is about the HICBC.

    Anyone who applied after that the charge came in cannot claim ignorance of the rules, don't apply for benefits if you don't want to ensure you are entitled to them.

    The advertising campaign made sure that people who were already claiming were aware of the rules changing, again, if you don't want to take personal responsibility, don't apply for benefits.

    while I agree the system could be improved, the buck does start and end with the claimant.
    • googan
    • By googan 12th Oct 17, 2:56 PM
    • 1 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    googan
    I too have been hit with a massive Tax bill for 3 years worth of child benefit... my circumstances are slightly different though... as i was earning below £50k until only last year.... and have always been PAYE.

    As many people have posted there was a campaign 4 years ago regarding the changes to the system and did not apply to me and until last year did not apply to me as i still earned below £50K...

    However, as I have a company car, fuel card private healthcare if i need it and apparently that counts as earnings (which I pay extra tax for anyway) towards the £50K it and pushes me above the earnings limit.... I knew nothing of this.. It was all about earning over £50k as far as I remember....

    Once again I have always been PAYE and HMRC have been quick to tell me if I have underpaid income tax and automatically adjusted my tax code to suit this the following year.

    It feels like one way for one tax thing and another for another..

    I'm not disputing having to pay back the CB, but the penalties are unjust when the system is so complex and HMRC are able to tell you about one tax element via your tax code change and not another...
    • bobsp
    • By bobsp 13th Oct 17, 2:43 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    bobsp
    Same here, just received a letter today.

    We had no idea, never received any letter about this change.

    Spoken to friends this morning, nobody knew about it.

    I have never done a self assessment, I have always been on PAYE, for 27 years.

    I see people referring to adverts and news papers etc. I dont read newspapers, have not for years, its mostly full of rubbish, who sits through adverts when they come on?

    As these people know what I am taxed month/tear on month/year, why did they keep paying CHB?

    Ignorance is not defence, I agree, but we are mot mind readers, someone at HMRC has not done their job correctly, and we are expected to pay back as a result.

    Why were claimants not officially told?
    Why has it taken so long for them to realise their mistake?
    Why are they giving a few weeks to pay it back before imposing fines, as a result of their own mistake?
    Someone needs to be held accountable for this huge screw up by HMRC....

    Now we have to find over £4,000. I wouldn't mind but I pay an awful lot in maintenance to my ex, leaving me on a similar take home salary of £40,000.

    As a result with her working, and getting my maintenance, she still claims CHB (just under £50,000), I asked this morning, and with my maintenance on top, has alot more income than we do.
    • 00ec25
    • By 00ec25 13th Oct 17, 2:51 PM
    • 5,577 Posts
    • 4,979 Thanks
    00ec25
    Same here, just received a letter today.

    We had no idea, never received any letter about this change.

    Spoken to friends this morning, nobody knew about it.

    I have never done a self assessment, I have always been on PAYE, for 27 years.

    I see people referring to adverts and news papers etc. I dont read newspapers, have not for years, its mostly full of rubbish, who sits through adverts when they come on?

    As these people know what I am taxed month/tear on month/year, why did they keep paying CHB?

    Ignorance is not defence, I agree, but we are mot mind readers, someone at HMRC has not done their job correctly, and we are expected to pay back as a result.

    Why were claimants not officially told?
    Why has it taken so long for them to realise their mistake?
    Why are they giving a few weeks to pay it back before imposing fines, as a result of their own mistake?
    Someone needs to be held accountable for this huge screw up by HMRC....

    Now we have to find over £4,000. I wouldn't mind but I pay an awful lot in maintenance to my ex, leaving me on a similar take home salary of £40,000.

    As a result with her working, and getting my maintenance, she still claims CHB (just under £50,000), I asked this morning, and with my maintenance on top, has alot more income than we do.
    Originally posted by bobsp
    as you say ignorance is no defence and those earning >50k are assumed to be intelligent enough to keep up with current affairs.

    The rules really did receive A LOT of publicity, even if you don't read newspapers. It seems your rant is as much to do with not being above your ex as it is to do with your tax. But of course as with "everything" in the modern world, it is always someone else's fault, never our own.
    • xylophone
    • By xylophone 13th Oct 17, 3:03 PM
    • 23,675 Posts
    • 13,799 Thanks
    xylophone
    Why were claimants not officially told?
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20298774

    from November 2012.

    HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) is sending letters to about a million people that start with the question: "Are you affected by changes to child benefit?"

    See above.

    Spoken to friends this morning, nobody knew about it.
    These are high earners in receipt of CB? And none of them knew anything about it?
    • bobsp
    • By bobsp 13th Oct 17, 3:12 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    bobsp
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20298774

    from November 2012.

    HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) is sending letters to about a million people that start with the question: "Are you affected by changes to child benefit?"

    See above.
    Originally posted by xylophone
    So it is presumed we all read the BBC news, and other publications???

    Where is the letter from HMRC, they cant simply rely on the hope people watch the TV.

    These are high earners in receipt of CB? And none of them knew anything about it?
    Originally posted by xylophone
    Correct, needless to say alot have been on the phone to HMRC today, probably why I cant get through....

    One earns alot more than I do, and has been over the limit for years.

    This TV, radio notifications is simply a cop out. They should have sent a letter informing people of this change as it in all honesty is a big change, to simply say we told you on the BBC website, an advert in ITV etc just about sums up the country we live in....
    • bobsp
    • By bobsp 13th Oct 17, 3:23 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    bobsp
    Now quickly researching this, it is clear they have screwed up...

    The Guardian:
    HMRC fails to communicate child benefit changes.
    Revenue blames incomplete data set for not contacting 300,000 families affected by imminent child benefit changes.


    HMRC say:

    However, to ensure people know about the changes we are also using extensive advertising, media and online activity, as well as written communication.
    The money will be taken through the self-assessment regime and will be paid when tax is collected for the financial year in which it is received.

    Well that's all well and good for people that are using the self-assessment regime. What about those that are not!!! Written communication, according to publications you have failed HMRC.
    Alot of people don't use the self-assessment regime, I have never done a self assessment, I am on PAYE.
    • bobsp
    • By bobsp 13th Oct 17, 4:04 PM
    • 19 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    bobsp
    Well finally got hold of HMRC, they confirmed nothing had been sent out to us, as they have no record.

    I questioned them as to why this has come about when my company pays them my PAYE tax every month, and have done for years, so they know what I earn, but still continued to may this benefit. He said he cant answer that, now there is a surprise.

    They also said I cant stop it, as I asked for it to be stopped immediately, my partner does as she is the recipient.

    So I cant stop it as I am not the recipient, but you can still come to me despite admitting you have never sent anything out about this to me or my partner, and claim I pay it back?

    You cant make this up...
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 13th Oct 17, 9:29 PM
    • 4,006 Posts
    • 2,972 Thanks
    sheramber
    If you are legally separated from your wife and not claiming the child benefit then you should not have to pay the charge from the date of separation.

    You need to advise HMRC.

    Child Benefit is a separate department from the Income tax and dealt with in a different office.
    • dori2o
    • By dori2o 15th Oct 17, 8:53 PM
    • 7,364 Posts
    • 12,276 Thanks
    dori2o
    People need to understand that the legislation governing the tax rules makes it absolutely clear that the responsibility to ensure the correct amount of tax is paid lies with the Individual. This has always been the case.

    HMRC are merely the collectors of tax. They are not there to hold everyones hand.

    The Gov. UK website contains all of this information.

    The letters were sent to people earning close to and over £50k in the first year the rules changed.

    Anyone who claimed child benefit AFTER the rules changed was told about the limits at the time they claimed. Its on the claim form.

    CBO (Child Benefit Office) pay child benefit, and whilst they may come under the umbrella of HMRC they dont have access to details of your income. There is also nothing stopping a person earning over £50k from claiming child benefit payments, it simply means the higher earner has to pay some or all of it back (1% repaid for every £100 taxable income over the limit).

    Everyone needs to start understanding the tax rules much better as the proposed changes coming in future years means taxpayers will have far more responsibility to tell HMRC about changes. This is one of the reasons why the Personal Tax Account has been introduced.

    Ignorance is not and never has been an acceptable/reasonable excuse.

    You have 6 months from the end of the tax year to notify HMRC if you are due to pay the charge.
    Last edited by dori2o; 25-10-2017 at 10:13 PM.
    To equate judgement and wisdom with occupation is at best . . . insulting.
    • badmemory
    • By badmemory 15th Oct 17, 11:48 PM
    • 1,063 Posts
    • 1,133 Thanks
    badmemory
    Just to clarify is that 6 months to notify you are going to do SA as I thought that was 31 Oct not 5 Nov or is it 31 Jan to do it online. Or is it actually no longer possible to file SA?

    Will it ever be possible for HMRC to get a newspaper to print a factual report of any tax changes? If a reputable newspaper (yes I know they are few & far between) are unable to print facts correctly how on earth are the rest of us supposed to get it right? And as for the HMRC website, search unless you know a very precise term = waste of time & if you do then it doesn't appear to be written in English.
    • sheramber
    • By sheramber 16th Oct 17, 8:57 PM
    • 4,006 Posts
    • 2,972 Thanks
    sheramber
    The higher income charge on CB was part of the Budget 2012 which reported on the BBC news, in the Telegraph and probably other papers.
    • flower77g
    • By flower77g 23rd Oct 17, 8:45 PM
    • 38 Posts
    • 12 Thanks
    flower77g
    It's probably worth those who are stuck with a penalty because of this checking whether they gave any money to charities in the affected year(s). There's some relief given for gift aid which could take the taxpayer back out of the higher rate tax bracket.
    • Toddy2
    • By Toddy2 24th Oct 17, 12:05 PM
    • 15 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    Toddy2
    I too received a letter today for 2014! My taxable income just nudged over the £50k to £52k by the time company car and health care were added. I did however, make £2.5k personal pension contributions - is it up to me to prove? I've since changed employers also moved the pension pot so little evidence.
    • MichelleUK
    • By MichelleUK 24th Oct 17, 12:26 PM
    • 325 Posts
    • 200 Thanks
    MichelleUK
    I too received a letter today for 2014! My taxable income just nudged over the £50k to £52k by the time company car and health care were added. I did however, make £2.5k personal pension contributions - is it up to me to prove? I've since changed employers also moved the pension pot so little evidence.
    Originally posted by Toddy2
    Your pension contribution is a bit confusing! You stated that it was to a personal pension but also mention that you have changed employers. To clarify, was the pension contribution taken via the payroll or did you pay the pension company directly?
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