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  • FIRST POST
    • gandl
    • By gandl 8th Aug 17, 3:23 PM
    • 11Posts
    • 4Thanks
    gandl
    ParkingEye PCN Cafe Oasis Weymouth
    • #1
    • 8th Aug 17, 3:23 PM
    ParkingEye PCN Cafe Oasis Weymouth 8th Aug 17 at 3:23 PM
    My wife received a parking charge notice last week for £100 from ParkingEye, as she is the registered keeper of a vehicle that PE alleges was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of a private car park (Cafe Oasis, Weymouth). The driver denies the allegations for various reasons, including unclear signage.


    According to the PCN:


    Date of Event: 16/07/2017
    Date Issued: 01/08/2017


    The PCN is NOT a 'POFA/keeper liability after 29 days' one. It was issued more than 14 days after the alleged event.


    In this situation, should we use the following template from the Newbies thread for the appeal to PE:


    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,


    THE NAME AND ADDRESS OF THE KEEPER GOES HERE. THE DRIVER IS NOT IDENTIFIED.



    Is there anything else we should include?


    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 8th Aug 17, 3:26 PM
    • 15,516 Posts
    • 19,601 Thanks
    Redx
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 17, 3:26 PM
    • #2
    • 8th Aug 17, 3:26 PM
    add an extra paragraph

    As keeper of the vehicle I am not liable for this spurious charge notice because you have failed the POFA2012 test on delivering a pcn to a keeper within 14 days, so I insist that this pcn is cancelled because the driver will not be named under any circumstances and I will use this defence at POPLA and in any subsequent court case
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • gandl
    • By gandl 8th Aug 17, 7:14 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    gandl
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 17, 7:14 PM
    • #3
    • 8th Aug 17, 7:14 PM
    Hi Redx - many thanks for your quick response - very helpful.


    This seems to be the key appeal point, so we'll add this para right at the start, after 'I challenge this 'PCN'...'


    I'll post again when we get the response from PE.


    Thanks again
    • Elysander
    • By Elysander 8th Aug 17, 7:53 PM
    • 73 Posts
    • 179 Thanks
    Elysander
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 17, 7:53 PM
    • #4
    • 8th Aug 17, 7:53 PM
    PE may well respond asking for 'further information' They already know they can't hold the keeper liable as they missed the POFA deadline, so they need the name of the driver. You can ignore their letter asking to identify the driver. You will then receive a rejection letter with a POPLA code and can submit a fuller appeal to POPLA similar to recent POPLA appeals on this forum. PE will be hoping that you identify the driver, miss the POPLA deadline or imply in your POPLA appeal who was driving. Your first appeal point will be no keeper liability due to PE not complying with the regulations laid out in POFA. PE may well decide not to contest your appeal at POPLA as they already know they cannot win a non POFA pcn where the driver has not been identified.
    Last edited by Elysander; 09-08-2017 at 12:48 PM. Reason: .
    • gandl
    • By gandl 17th Aug 17, 8:10 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    gandl
    • #5
    • 17th Aug 17, 8:10 PM
    ParkingEye PCN Cafe Oasis Weymouth
    • #5
    • 17th Aug 17, 8:10 PM
    Thanks for your response Elysander. PE didn't bother to ask for further information - they just sent an unsuccessful appeal notification letter with a POPLA code. Do we need to do a long and detailed appeal to POPLA, including going back to the car park to gather photographic evidence, etc., or is it sufficient for us to rely solely or primarily on our main appeal point - no keeper liability due to PE not complying with the regulations laid out in POFA? We would be very grateful for any advice.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Aug 17, 8:16 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 17th Aug 17, 8:16 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Aug 17, 8:16 PM
    The PCN is NOT a 'POFA/keeper liability after 29 days' one. It was issued more than 14 days after the alleged event.
    Great, so it has a gap on the back where that para normally is?

    You could indeed appeal on the one POPLA point if you are brave enough - it's a winner.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gandl
    • By gandl 17th Aug 17, 8:37 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    gandl
    • #7
    • 17th Aug 17, 8:37 PM
    • #7
    • 17th Aug 17, 8:37 PM
    Many thanks Coupon-mad


    I am assuming the para is normally immediately below the one that says "If you were not the driver at the time, you should tell us the name and current postal address of the driver and pass this notice to them".


    There is a small gap there and the notice then goes on to "APPEALS & COMPLAINTS PROCEDURE".


    I certainly cannot see anything mentioning keeper liability after 29 days anywhere in the notice.


    Thanks for your confirmation re appealing on the one POPLA point, but I note 'if you are brave enough'. We really want to get this over with as soon as possible and don't want to take any chances, so I guess we are probably best to take the full detailed appeal approach.
    • gandl
    • By gandl 22nd Aug 17, 7:33 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    gandl
    • #8
    • 22nd Aug 17, 7:33 PM
    ParkingEye PCN Cafe Oasis Weymouth - POPLA Appeal
    • #8
    • 22nd Aug 17, 7:33 PM
    Hi All
    We have drafted the following POPLA appeal, using the templates in the Newbies thread and other very helpful advice we have found in this forum. Hopefully this is sufficient for our case, but we would be very grateful if one of the experts could give it a quick check through and let us have any comments or suggested amendments/additions.
    Many thanks in advance.
    Gandl




    Dear POPLA,
    PCN Number: xxx
    POPLA Verification Code: xxx


    I write to you as the registered keeper of the vehicle xxxx, I wish to appeal the £100 Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued by ParkingEye Ltd.

    As the keeper of the car, but not the driver when the alleged event occurred, I submit the reasons below to show that I am not liable for the parking charge:

    1. ParkingEye's Parking Charge Notice is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) due to the dates and the wording used
    2. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge
    3. ANPR Accuracy and Compliance
    4. No Contract was entered into between the Parking Eye and the Driver or Registered keeper
    5. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself



    6. No evidence of Landowner Authority





    • ParkingEye's Parking Charge Notice is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (POFA) due to the dates and the wording used.

      Under schedule 4, paragraph 4 of the POFA, an operator can only establish the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of a vehicle if certain conditions must be met as stated in paragraphs 5, 6, 11, and 12. ParkingEye have failed to fulfil the conditions which state that an operator must have provided the keeper with a Notice to Keeper (NTK) in accordance with paragraph 9, which stipulates as mandatory, a set timeline and wording:-

      The notice must be given by—
      (a) handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
      (b) sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
      The applicable section here is (b) because the Parking Charge Notice/NTK that I have received was delivered by post. Furthermore, paragraph 9(5) states:

      ’’The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended’’

      The Parking Charge Notice sent to myself as Registered Keeper was produced in their offices (never actually posted on that day, as is well known) showing a ‘date issued’ of 01/08/2017. This is 16 days after the date of the alleged event, shown as 16/07/2017, and the notice was not actually delivered to my address until almost 3 weeks after the date of the alleged event.

      This means that ParkingEye have failed to act within the 14 day relevant period. Furthermore, it is clear that ParkingEye know this because they have used the alternative version of their template ‘Parking Charge Notice’ – the one with a blank space near the bottom of page one and no reference to ‘keeper liability’ or the POFA.

      So, this is a charge that could only be potentially enforced against a known driver. Whilst I was an occupant of the car, I was not the driver, the driver has never been admitted and there is no evidence as to the identity of that individual, which brings me to point #2:

      2) The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact liable for the charge.

      In cases with a keeper appellant, yet no POFA 'keeper liability' to rely upon, POPLA must first consider whether they are confident that the Assessor knows who the driver is, based on the evidence received. No presumption can be made about liability whatsoever. A vehicle can be driven by any person (with the consent of the owner) as long as the driver is insured. There is no dispute that the driver was entitled to drive the car and I can confirm that they were, but I am exercising my right not to name that person.

      Where a charge is aimed only at a driver then, of course, no other party can be told to pay, not by POPLA, nor the operator, nor even in court.

      I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a POFA-compliant NTK. Only full compliance with Schedule 4 of the POFA (or evidence that a keeper was the driver) can cause a keeper appellant to be deemed by POPLA to be the liable party. The burden of proof rests with the Operator, because they cannot use the POFA in this case, to show that (as an individual) I have personally not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

      The vital matter of full compliance with the POFA was confirmed by parking law expert barrister, Henry Greenslade, the previous POPLA Lead Adjudicator, in 2015:-

      Understanding keeper liability
      “There appears to be continuing misunderstanding about Schedule 4. Provided certain conditions are strictly complied with, it provides for recovery of unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle.

      There is no ‘reasonable presumption’ in law that the registered keeper of a vehicle is the driver. Operators should never suggest anything of the sort. Further, a failure by the recipient of a notice issued under Schedule 4 to name the driver, does not of itself mean that the recipient has accepted that they were the driver at the material time. Unlike, for example, a Notice of Intended Prosecution where details of the driver of a vehicle must be supplied when requested by the police, pursuant to Section 172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988, a keeper sent a Schedule 4 notice has no legal obligation to name the driver. [...] If {POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is} not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''


      No lawful right exists to pursue unpaid parking charges from a keeper, where an operator is NOT attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the POFA. This exact finding was made in a very similar case with the same style NTK in 6061796103 v ParkingEye in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:

      ''I note the operator advises that it is not attempting to transfer the liability for the charge using the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and so in mind, the operator continues to hold the driver responsible. As such, I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''


    3. ANPR Accuracy and Compliance

    I require ParkingEye Ltd to present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that ParkingEye Ltd must produce evidence in response to these points and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss by the Operator in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence from the Operator was 'fundamentally flawed' as the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.

    So, in addition to showing their maintenance records, I require ParkingEye Ltd in this case to show evidence to rebut this point: I suggest that in the case of my vehicle being in this car park, a local camera took the image but a remote server added the time stamp. As the two are disconnected by the internet and do not have a common "time synchronisation system", there is no proof that the time stamp added is actually the exact time of the image. The operator appears to use WIFI which introduces a delay through buffering, so "live" is not really "live". Hence without a synchronised time stamp there is no evidence that the image is ever time stamped with an accurate time. Therefore I contend that this ANPR "evidence" from this Operator in this car park is just as unreliable as the ParkingEye system in the Fox-Jones case and I put this Operator to strict proof to the contrary.

    In addition, the unreliable/unsynchronised ANPR system used, and lack of information about the use of data, is not compliant with the BPA Code of Practice, which contains the following:
    ''21 Automatic number plate recognition (ANPR)
    21.1 You may use ANPR camera technology to manage, control and enforce parking in private car parks, as long as you do this in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner. Your signs at the car park must tell drivers that you are using this technology and what you will use the data captured by ANPR cameras for.
    21.2 Quality checks: before you issue a parking charge notice you must carry out a manual quality check of the ANPR images to reduce errors and make sure that it is appropriate to take action. Full details of the items you should check are listed in the Operators’ Handbook.
    21.3 You must keep any ANPR equipment you use in your car parks in good working order. You need to make sure the data you are collecting is accurate, securely held and cannot be tampered with.
    21.4 It is also a condition of the Code that, if you receive and process vehicle or registered keeper data, you must:
    • be registered with the Information Commissioner
    • keep to the Data Protection Act
    • follow the DVLA requirements concerning the data
    • follow the guidelines from the Information Commissioner’s Office on the use of CCTV and ANPR cameras, and on keeping and sharing personal data such as vehicle registration marks.''

    At this location, there are merely a couple of secret small cameras up high on a pole. No signs at the car park clearly tell drivers about this technology nor how the data captured by ANPR cameras will be used. This means the system does not operate in a reasonable, consistent and transparent manner, and I have reason to believe that, potentially, every section of paragraph 21 is breached here. Unless the Operator can show documentary evidence otherwise, then this BPA Cop breach would also point to a failure to comply with the POFA 2012 (keeper liability requires strict compliance), a failure to comply with the ICO terms of registration and a breach of the CPUTR 2008 (claiming to comply with the BPA Code of Practice when I believe it is not the case). This Operator is put to strict proof to the contrary.


    4. No Contract was entered into between the Parking Eye and the Driver or Registered keeper

    Although I was not the driver of the event, I would like to point out that the signs at the car park in question are unsuitable to inform drivers of the full terms and conditions of what they are entering into by physically entering the car park. ParkingEye clearly relies on contract law, but does not do enough to make clear what the terms and conditions of the contract are, making it far too easy for people to unwittingly fall outside the terms of contract. It is not appropriate for a car park such as this to have such a limited amount of signs and rely on drivers to look carefully for where and how the terms are displayed. It is surely the responsibility of ParkingEye Ltd to make the terms of their contract far clearer so that drivers have no doubt whatsoever of any supposed contract they may be entering into. I require ParkingEye Ltd to provide evidence as to how clear the terms and conditions are and consider if the methods used are clear enough for this type of car park. I would specifically like them to look into how clear the signs are that inform drivers that ANPR cameras are in use on this site.

    Furthermore a contract can only be considered to be entered into if enough evidence exists that it actually happened. For a contract to have been entered into the driver would have had to get out of the car, read the signs, fully interpret and understand them and then agree to them. None of which ever actually happened.

    I request that ParkingEye Ltd provide concrete evidence that a contract existed between themselves and the driver on the day in question, which meets all the legal requirements of forming a contract. They should include specific things including, agreement from both parties, clarity and certainty of terms etc. If they are not met then the contract would be deemed “unfair” under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999.


    5. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    There was no contract nor agreement on the 'parking charge' at all. It is submitted that the driver did not have a fair opportunity to read about any terms involving this huge charge, which is out of all proportion and not saved by the dissimilar 'ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis' case.

    In the Beavis case, which turned on specific facts relating only to the signs at that site and the unique interests and intentions of the landowners, the signs were unusually clear and not a typical example for this notorious industry. The Supreme Court were keen to point out the decision related to that car park and those facts only:

    [link removed]

    In the Beavis case, the £85 charge itself was in the largest font size with a contrasting colour background and the terms were legible, fairly concise and unambiguous. There were 'large lettering' signs at the entrance and all around the car park, according to the Judges.

    Here is the 'Beavis case' sign as a comparison to the signs under dispute in this case:

    [link removed]

    This case, by comparison, does not demonstrate an example of the 'large lettering' and 'prominent signage' that impressed the Supreme Court Judges and swayed them into deciding that in the specific car park in the Beavis case alone, a contract and 'agreement on the charge' existed.

    Here, the signs are sporadically placed, indeed obscured and hidden in some areas. They are unremarkable, not immediately obvious as parking terms and the wording is mostly illegible, being crowded and cluttered with a lack of white space as a background. It is indisputable that placing letters too close together in order to fit more information into a smaller space can drastically reduce the legibility of a sign, especially one which must be read BEFORE the action of parking and leaving the car.

    It is vital to observe, since 'adequate notice of the parking charge' is mandatory under the POFA Schedule 4 and the BPA Code of Practice, these signs do not clearly mention the parking charge which is hidden in small print (and does not feature at all on some of the signs). Areas of this site are unsigned and there are no full terms displayed - i.e. with the sum of the parking charge itself in large lettering - at the entrance either, so it cannot be assumed that a driver drove past and could read a legible sign, nor parked near one.

    This case is more similar to the signage in POPLA decision 5960956830 on 2.6.16, where the Assessor Rochelle Merritt found as fact that signs in a similar size font in a busy car park where other unrelated signs were far larger, was inadequate:

    ''the signage is not of a good enough size to afford motorists the chance to read and understand the terms and conditions before deciding to remain in the car park. [...] In addition the operators signs would not be clearly visible from a parking space [...] The appellant has raised other grounds for appeal but I have not dealt with these as I have allowed the appeal.''

    From the evidence I have seen so far, the terms appear to be displayed inadequately, in letters no more than about half an inch high, approximately. I put the operator to strict proof as to the size of the wording on their signs and the size of lettering for the most onerous term, the parking charge itself.

    The letters seem to be no larger than .40 font size going by this guide:

    [link removed]

    As further evidence that this is inadequate notice, Letter Height Visibility is discussed here:


    [link removed]

    ''When designing your sign, consider how you will be using it, as well as how far away the readers you want to impact will be. For example, if you are placing a sales advertisement inside your retail store, your text only needs to be visible to the people in the store. 1-2” letters (or smaller) would work just fine. However, if you are hanging banners and want drivers on a nearby highway to be able to see them, design your letters at 3” or even larger.''


    ...and the same chart is reproduced here:

    [link removed]

    ''When designing an outdoor sign for your business keep in mind the readability of the letters. Letters always look smaller when mounted high onto an outdoor wall''.

    ''...a guideline for selecting sign letters. Multiply the letter height by 10 and that is the best viewing distance in feet. Multiply the best viewing distance by 4 and that is the max viewing distance.''

    So, a letter height of just half an inch, showing the terms and the 'charge' and placed high on a wall or pole or buried in far too crowded small print, is woefully inadequate in an outdoor car park. Given that letters look smaller when high up on a wall or pole, as the angle renders the words less readable due to the perspective and height, you would have to stand right in front of it and still need a stepladder (and perhaps a torch and/or magnifying glass) to be able to read the terms.

    Under Lord Denning's Red Hand Rule, the charge (being 'out of all proportion' with expectations of drivers in this car park and which is the most onerous of terms) should have been effectively: 'in red letters with a red hand pointing to it' - i.e. VERY clear and prominent with the terms in large lettering, as was found to be the case in the car park in 'Beavis'. A reasonable interpretation of the 'red hand rule' and the 'signage visibility distance' tables above and the BPA Code of Practice, taking all information into account, would require a parking charge and the terms to be displayed far more transparently, on a lower sign and in far larger lettering, with fewer words and more 'white space' as background contrast. Indeed in the Consumer Rights Act 2015 there is a 'Requirement for transparency':

    (1) A trader must ensure that a written term of a consumer contract, or a consumer notice in writing, is transparent.
    (2) A consumer notice is transparent for the purposes of subsection (1) if it is expressed in plain and intelligible language and it is legible.

    The Beavis case signs not being similar to the signs in this appeal at all, I submit that the persuasive case law is in fact 'Vine v London Borough of Waltham Forest [2000] EWCA Civ 106' about a driver not seeing the terms and consequently, she was NOT deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    [link removed]

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established. The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking.

    So, for this appeal, I put this operator to strict proof of where the car was parked and (from photos taken in the same lighting conditions) how their signs appeared on that date, at that time, from the angle of the driver's perspective. Equally, I require this operator to show how the entrance signs appear from a driver's seat, not stock examples of 'the sign' in isolation/close-up. I submit that full terms simply cannot be read from a car before parking and mere 'stock examples' of close-ups of the (alleged) signage terms will not be sufficient to disprove this.



    [End of Part 1 - too many characters]

    • gandl
    • By gandl 22nd Aug 17, 7:34 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    gandl
    • #9
    • 22nd Aug 17, 7:34 PM
    ParkingEye PCN Cafe Oasis Weymouth - POPLA Appeal
    • #9
    • 22nd Aug 17, 7:34 PM
    [POPLA appeal Part 2]


    6. No evidence of Landowner Authority

    As ParkingEye Ltd does not have proprietary interest in the land then I require that they produce an unredacted copy of the contract with the landowner. The contract and any 'site agreement' or 'User Manual' setting out details including exemptions - such as any 'genuine customer' or 'genuine resident' exemptions or any site occupier's 'right of veto' charge cancellation rights - is key evidence to define what ParkingEye is authorised to do and any circumstances where the landowner/firms on site in fact have a right to cancellation of a charge. It cannot be assumed, just because an agent is contracted to merely put some signs up and issue Parking Charge Notices, that the agent is also authorised to make contracts with all or any category of visiting drivers and/or to enforce the charge in court in their own name (legal action regarding land use disputes generally being a matter for a landowner only).

    Witness statements are not sound evidence of the above, often being pre-signed, generic documents not even identifying the case in hand or even the site rules. A witness statement might in some cases be accepted by POPLA but in this case I suggest it is unlikely to sufficiently evidence the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.

    Nor would it define vital information such as charging days/times, any exemption clauses, grace periods (which I believe may be longer than the bare minimum times set out in the BPA CoP) and basic information such as the land boundary and bays where enforcement applies/does not apply. Not forgetting evidence of the various restrictions which the landowner has authorised can give rise to a charge and of course, how much the landowner authorises this agent to charge (which cannot be assumed to be the sum in small print on a sign because template private parking terms and sums have been known not to match the actual landowner agreement).

    Paragraph 7 of the BPA CoP defines the mandatory requirements and I put this operator to strict proof of full compliance:

    7.2 If the operator wishes to take legal action on any outstanding parking charges, they must ensure that they have the written authority of the landowner (or their appointed agent) prior to legal action being taken.

    7.3 The written authorisation must also set out:

    a the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement






    Therefore, it is respectfully requested that this parking charge notice appeal be allowed and the appeal should be upheld on every point.

    Yours faithfully
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 22nd Aug 17, 11:39 PM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Ace.

    I would get rid of point #3 (ANPR stuff) which never wins at POPLA, to reduce it to the points that will.

    And an amendment is needed here, because PE have changed their PCNs and the POFA wording appears on the BACK now (but you say yours doesn't have it - you have a golden ticket!):

    Furthermore, it is clear that ParkingEye know this because they have used the alternative version of their template ‘Parking Charge Notice’ – the one with a blank space on the back near the bottom of page one and no reference to ‘keeper liability’ or the POFA.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • gandl
    • By gandl 23rd Aug 17, 10:30 AM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    gandl
    Great - many thanks Coupon-mad. Will make the amendments, submit the appeal and post again when we hear back.


    One final question - should we upload a copy of the original notice - which shows the event and issue dates and absence of keeper liability ref - with our appeal?


    Best regards
    Gandl
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Aug 17, 10:49 AM
    • 504 Posts
    • 601 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Yes, include a photo of the PCN in your appeal. Highlight where the POFA wording is missing. Make it really obvious they are NOT claiming the keeper is liable.
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 23rd Aug 17, 10:49 AM
    • 1,481 Posts
    • 2,763 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Is this not the location where the Cafe is not the owner of part of the site? Sure have seen this earlier. Part of the beach is not within the Cafe's curtilage.
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • gandl
    • By gandl 23rd Aug 17, 12:05 PM
    • 11 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    gandl
    Thanks Nosferatu - will do.


    IamEmanresu-you could well be right - the car park does lead to an area of beach, but I think they claim it is part of the Cafe's property and therefore subject to the same parking restrictions.


    Gandl
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Aug 17, 12:41 PM
    • 504 Posts
    • 601 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Ive seena definitive map of the cafes holdings posted, versus what they claim. If the vehicle was parked beyond the actual land leased, then PE are stuffed. And of course, as its ANPR, they have no images of the vehicle parked....
    • IamEmanresu
    • By IamEmanresu 23rd Aug 17, 5:58 PM
    • 1,481 Posts
    • 2,763 Thanks
    IamEmanresu
    Ive seena definitive map of the cafes holdings posted, versus what they claim. If the vehicle was parked beyond the actual land leased, then PE are stuffed. And of course, as its ANPR, they have no images of the vehicle parked....
    May be a site where PE won't want to have too many questions asked.....
    Life's for living, get on with it rather than worrying about these. If they hassle, counter claim.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 24th Aug 17, 2:42 AM
    • 504 Posts
    • 601 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Pe will blame the cafe owner.
    • mwjn
    • By mwjn 15th Sep 17, 12:38 PM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    mwjn
    Hi Gandl

    Have you received any replies back from POPLA?

    I have a PCN from ParkingEye which is Non-POFA Compliant and interested on the Outcome

    Thanks
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Sep 17, 12:09 AM
    • 50,098 Posts
    • 63,478 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    People with a PE 'golden ticket' always win here, if they've avoided blabbing about who was driving:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5684787

    You would have to try extremely hard to lose at POPLA with a 'golden ticket' (non-POFA). You are lucky!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • mwjn
    • By mwjn 16th Sep 17, 9:00 AM
    • 18 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    mwjn
    Hi Coupon-Mad

    I will take a look at the link

    Many thanks
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