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  • FIRST POST
    • greg2424
    • By greg2424 7th Aug 17, 9:11 AM
    • 23Posts
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    greg2424
    Ncp anpr
    • #1
    • 7th Aug 17, 9:11 AM
    Ncp anpr 7th Aug 17 at 9:11 AM
    Hi Folks,

    Been reading through the sticky and just wanted to check that my correct course of action is to send the BCA template via e-mail to NCP.

    My vehicle was captured going in and out of an NCP car park in a timescale of 16 minutes.

    Based on the sticky, it seems I can just send this BCA template letter and leave it at that....?
    Last edited by greg2424; 06-09-2017 at 5:18 PM.
Page 1
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Aug 17, 11:45 AM
    • 15,502 Posts
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    Redx
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 17, 11:45 AM
    • #2
    • 7th Aug 17, 11:45 AM
    its BPA , British Parking Association , not British Car Auctions !!!

    use the blue text appeal "as is" , no alterations

    do not lie , do not make things up , tell them nothing at all , keep stum , no comment !!!

    capiche ?
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 7th Aug 17, 1:05 PM
    • 14,537 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 17, 1:05 PM
    • #3
    • 7th Aug 17, 1:05 PM
    During which time the car was not actually parked, I jumped out
    Very dangerous manoeuvre to jump out of a car that is still moving.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 7th Aug 17, 1:36 PM
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    Guys Dad
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 17, 1:36 PM
    • #4
    • 7th Aug 17, 1:36 PM
    Breaking down what you have written into its simplest elements.

    1. You used a pay and display carpark.
    2 You were timed at 16 minutes and there was no free period.
    3. You got caught.

    Your mindset is "It was only 16 minutes and someone was in the car all the time". Their counter argument is "You chose to use our paid-for facility and skipped out without paying"

    They offered a service contract that you accepted by driving in, parking and conducting your business. You presumably would have paid if you and your family had parked up and gone somewhere for a couple of hours, so where is the cut off point?

    1 hour?
    30 minutes?
    20 minutes?

    Your eventual appeal will have to be based on the fact that they have failed to bring to your attention by lack of signage the t&cs applicable, or they have failed procedurally to follow POFA when they send the NtK or they did not follow their trade association code of practice.

    So your case is, as I said, very simple. You chanced your arm and got caught so now you need a loophole to get off. No harm in that (as the charges are ludicrous) so start reading a couple of the latest pages in this forum.

    The one stroke of luck you do have is that NCP are not usually litigious.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 7th Aug 17, 8:33 PM
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    Redx
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 17, 8:33 PM
    • #5
    • 7th Aug 17, 8:33 PM
    do not listen to what any "friend" says

    read and follow the info in the NEWBIES sticky faq at the top of this forum

    the maximum time you are allowed on private land is 10 minutes, so yes 5 minutes seems ok , but 16 minutes isnt
    Last edited by Redx; 07-08-2017 at 8:59 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Fruitcake
    • By Fruitcake 7th Aug 17, 8:59 PM
    • 40,304 Posts
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    Fruitcake
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 17, 8:59 PM
    • #6
    • 7th Aug 17, 8:59 PM
    As already mentioned, your car was parked. It matters not if there was someone in it or the engine was left running.

    You send the BPA template by whatever method it tells you to use on the PCN/NTK. If it says email, then send it by email, if it says carrier pigeon, then use that method.

    Your friend appears to know nowt about private parking. You should send them here to be educated. The only fourteen day period that is relevant is if the NTK arrived or not by day fourteen where no notice to driver was issued, day zero being the day of the alleged event. Any other reference to day fourteen is relevant only to mugs.
    I married my cousin. I had to...
    I don't have a sister.

    All my screwdrivers are cordless.
    "You're Safety Is My Primary Concern Dear" - Laks
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 8th Aug 17, 6:50 AM
    • 499 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 17, 6:50 AM
    • #7
    • 8th Aug 17, 6:50 AM
    They might be thinking of COUNCIL tickets, but even then theyre not required to freeze the 14 day discount period. Your friend is woefully ill informed.

    Edit your post. Dont say who drove. Thats on every single thread.
    • greg2424
    • By greg2424 29th Aug 17, 8:41 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    greg2424
    • #8
    • 29th Aug 17, 8:41 AM
    • #8
    • 29th Aug 17, 8:41 AM
    Hi, I just received my response from NCP

    Re: Parking Charge Notice Number XXXXXXXX(Vehicle: XXXXXXXX)
    Issue date: 03/08/2017

    Thank you for your appeal received on 15/08/2017 regarding the above detailed Parking Charge
    Notice, we have reviewed your case and considered the comments you have made. Your appeal has
    also been considered in conjunction with the evidence gathered by our Automatic Number Plate
    Recognition cameras, which record your entry and exit times. Our records show the notice was
    correctly issued as your vehicle was parked in breach of the Terms and Conditions of Parking.

    We are therefore unable to cancel the Parking Charge Notice as it was issued correctly. We have now
    extended the discounted payment period by 7 days to allow you time to pay the discounted settlement
    amount. Please now make payment of £60 to reach us by 09/09/2017 or £100 to reach us by
    23/09/2017. We must advise you that once the discounted settlement rate passes it will not be offered
    again.

    Payments can be made by cheque or postal order made payable to National Car Parks Limited, please ensure you write your Parking Charge Notice number clearly on the reverse. Please do not send cash through the post.

    You have reached the end of our internal appeals procedure. NCP will not assess further appeals in
    relation to this matter. However, in line with our Accredited Trade Association (ATA) membership we
    are required to provide you with an Independent Appeals Service. If you wish to appeal your case
    further you can now only do so to Parking On Private Land Appeals (POPLA) provided by Ombudsman Services on instruction of the British Parking Association.

    All information on how to appeal to POPLA is provided on their website; you will need the following 10-digit verification code to submit your appeal; XXXXXXXXX.

    Please note that should you wish to appeal to POPLA you must do so within 28 days from the date of
    this letter. If POPLA reject your appeal you will be liable for the full amount of this PCN. The discounted amount will not be reinstated under any circumstances. POPLA will also not asses a case that has been paid prior to the appeal being received by them. By law we are also required to inform you, Ombudsman Services provides an alternative dispute resolution service (ADR) that would be competent to deal with your appeal. However, NCP have chosen not to participate in their ADR service and as such should you wish to appeal further you must do so to POPLA as detailed above.

    Yours sincerely,
    Appeals Department
    National Car Parks Ltd.

    Should I fight this further? Is there another template I need to use for the POPLA appeal? Do I need to go and take photos? Again, any advice would be much appreciated.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Aug 17, 1:34 AM
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    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 30th Aug 17, 1:34 AM
    • #9
    • 30th Aug 17, 1:34 AM
    Win at POPLA by copying another one just like it, by searching 'NCP POPLA' and change to ''show POSTS''.

    EASY.
    So your case is, as I said, very simple. You chanced your arm and got caught so now you need a loophole to get off.
    The loophole is the POFA, of course, ''no keeper liability'', as long as you never said who was driving nor chose 'driver' in NCP's drop-down menu, like a numpty poster told us they managed to do last week.

    No idea why people don't know what to do next - the NEWBIES thread covers POPLA stage and gives pre-written template appeal points; it can't get much simpler.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 30-08-2017 at 1:37 AM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • greg2424
    • By greg2424 6th Sep 17, 5:20 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    greg2424
    Assuming the advice was to edit my OP, I have gone ahead and done that.... Although I'm not sure exactly what this achieves other than the possibility that authorities trawl this forum looking for evidence.....?
    • greg2424
    • By greg2424 6th Sep 17, 5:40 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    greg2424
    The problem is that there is no clear indication on the forum of where I should be going with this after receiving the letter I posted above. There are numerous (countless even!) pages of information, but none that align with my own situation in that I am appealing ANPR with NCP on the grounds of not being the driver. I have tried searching the forum but I cannot find a 100% match.....

    When I wrote to NCP using the online appeals part of their website and stated that I was the keeper and not the driver.

    The main issue I am having is trying to determine what I now send to NCP (or POPLA?) and whether there is a template I can use for that? It seems that in some cases it is dependent on the presence of some "29 days" passage of text that appears (or not) in the initial letter. Some people have stated sending lengthy accounts of the scenario on the day, but since my position is that I am not the driver, surely I only need to state that I was not the driver and that I am not obliged to provide that information?

    I only have until the 9th to pay the £60, so would rather pay that sooner rather than later if I'm unlikely to win.

    Many thanks in advance
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 6th Sep 17, 5:57 PM
    • 10,196 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    You seem to want us to do the work of a layer but for free. Your OP seemed to show that you were on the ball, but things seem to have gone downhill.

    Please read the last 2 or 3 pages from the POPLA DECISIONS sticky thread at the top of the forum and adapt a winning appeal from there.

    Remember, if you have broken their t&c, then you need to dismantle their case by showing that in some way they have failed to create a contract. The POPLA DECISIONS thread has lots of examples, so use the same appeal points, but be sure to provide evidence of their failures.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 6th Sep 17, 6:03 PM
    • 15,502 Posts
    • 19,590 Thanks
    Redx
    to clarify

    the NEWBIES sticky thread posts 1 to 4 and 9 (think its 9) deal with all aspects of these private parking invoices and appeals

    you started with post #1 and used the blue text template to NCP (stage 1)

    this was refused by NCP and a popla code issued

    there is no further communication with NCP

    you have a popla code so you draft and submit a popla appeal to POPLA (stage 2)

    there are NO templates on this forum for any POPLA appeals

    there ARE examples of what others have drafted or adapted before you

    you must adapt one of those for your own use (recommended), OR you start from scratch and develop your own popla appeal (not recommended)

    once it is drafted you can post it on here for critique (no personal info , no VRM , no popla ref at this stage)

    when it is approved for submission to POPLA you add the personal details required, like pcn ref , popla ref , VRM , name and address etc

    you then save it as a final pdf file to be uploaded

    you go to the popla website and upload the pdf and put see attached appeal, choosing OTHER

    post #3 of that NEWBIES sticky thread deals with this second stage



    now having read the above, where is the confusion ? (its all in that newbies thread)

    if you dont like or cannot find examples for your own appeal , tough **** , you gotta adapt the nearest one, ie:- do some work

    hope that explains it all ?

    ps:- there are hundreds if not thousands of posts about not being the driver , its all the ones that reference POFA2012 and how a PPC has failed to transfer liability from the driver to the keeper

    if they have adhered to POFA2012, then not being the driver is irrelevant
    Last edited by Redx; 06-09-2017 at 6:09 PM.
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 6th Sep 17, 6:57 PM
    • 3,625 Posts
    • 1,839 Thanks
    KeithP
    Assuming the advice was to edit my OP, I have gone ahead and done that.... Although I'm not sure exactly what this achieves other than the possibility that authorities trawl this forum looking for evidence.....?
    Originally posted by greg2424
    The private parking companies certainly do 'trawl this forum looking for evidence', but I'm not sure they can be described as 'authorities'.
    .
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 7th Sep 17, 1:31 AM
    • 50,024 Posts
    • 63,421 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The main issue I am having is trying to determine what I now send to NCP (or POPLA?) and whether there is a template I can use for that?
    POPLA - yes, template appeal points are those in post #3 of the NEWBIES thread. You could literally throw 4 of those templates together and show us, as a starter for ten!

    Or copy and adapt another NCP POPLA appeal that's close enough...one that talks about 'no keeper liability' and edit it for your own case.

    I only have until the 9th to pay the £60, so would rather pay that sooner rather than later if I'm unlikely to win.
    You'd be the first - a keeper would have to try very hard to lose this.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • greg2424
    • By greg2424 11th Sep 17, 7:18 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    greg2424
    What do we think of this?

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Re: Parking Charge Reference number [xxxxxxx]! Vehicle registration: [xxxxxxxx]

    I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from NCP.

    My appeal to NCP was rejected and they gave me POPLA code [xxxxxxxxx].

    The basis of my appeal is: Unreasonable/Unfair Terms & The ANPR system is unreliable and neither synchronised nor accurate

    The charge that was levied is an unfair term (and therefore not binding) pursuant to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. The OFT on UTCCR 1999, in regard to Group 18(a): unfair financial burdens, states:

    ’18.1.3 Objections are less likely…if a term is specific and transparent as to what must be paid and in what circumstances. An unlit sign of terms placed too high to read, is far from ‘transparent’.
    Schedule 2 of those Regulations gives an indicative (and non-exhaustive) list of terms which may be regarded as unfair and includes at Schedule 2(1)(e) “Terms which have the object or effect of requiring any consumer who fails to fulfil his obligation to pay a disproportionately high sum in compensation.” Furthermore, Regulation 5(1) states that: “A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it causes a significant imbalance in the parties’ rights and obligations arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer”.

    The charge that was levied is an unreasonable indemnity clause pursuant to section 4(1) of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 which provides that: “A person cannot by reference to any contract term be made to indemnify another person (whether a party to the contract or not) in respect of liability that may be incurred by the other for negligence or breach of contract, except in so far as the contract term satisfies the requirement of reasonableness.”

    NCP's ANPR records show no parking time, merely photos of a car driving in and out which does not discount the possibility of a double visit that afternoon. It is unreasonable for this operator to record the start of ‘parking time’ as the moment of arrival in moving traffic if they in fact offer a pay and display system which the driver can only access after parking and which is when the clock in fact starts. The exit photo is not evidence of ‘parking time’ at all and has not been shown to be synchronised to the pay and display machine clock nor even to relate to the same parking event that afternoon.
    This Operator is obliged to ensure their ANPR equipment is maintained as described in paragraph 21.3 of the BPA Code of Practice and to have signs stating how the data will be stored/used. I say that Parking Eye have failed to clearly inform drivers about the cameras and what the data will be used for and how it will be used and stored. If there was such a sign at all then it was not prominent, since the driver did not see it. I have also seen no evidence that they have complied with the other requirements in that section of the code in terms of ANPR logs and maintenance and I put this Operator to strict proof of full ANPR compliance.

    In addition I question the entire reliability of the system. I require that NCP present records as to the dates and times of when the cameras at this car park were checked, adjusted, calibrated, synchronised with the timer which stamps the photos and generally maintained to ensure the accuracy of the dates and times of any ANPR images. This is important because the entirety of the charge is founded on two images purporting to show my vehicle entering and exiting at specific times. It is vital that this Operator must produce evidence in response and explain to POPLA how their system differs (if at all) from the flawed ANPR system which was wholly responsible for the court loss recently in ParkingEye v Fox-Jones on 8 Nov 2013. That case was dismissed when the judge said the evidence from ParkingEye was fundamentally flawed because the synchronisation of the camera pictures with the timer had been called into question and the operator could not rebut the point.

    So, in addition to showing their maintenance records, I require NCP to show evidence to rebut the following assertion. I suggest that in the case of my vehicle being in this car park, a local camera took the image but a remote server added the time stamp. As the two are disconnected by the internet and do not have a common “time synchronisation system”, there is no proof that the time stamp added is actually the exact time of the image. The operator appears to use WIFI which introduces a delay through buffering, so “live” is not really “live”. Hence without a synchronised time stamp there is no evidence that the image is ever time stamped with an accurate time. Therefore I contend that this ANPR “evidence” from the cameras in this car park is just as unreliable and unsynchronised as the evidence in the Fox-Jones case. As their whole charge rests upon two timed photos, I put NCP to strict proof to the contrary and to show how these camera timings are synchronised with the pay and display machine.

    I contend it is wholly unreasonable to rely on unlit signs in an attempt to profit by charging a disproportionate sum where no loss has been caused by a car in a free car park where the bays are not full. I put NCP to strict proof to justify that their charge, under the circumstances described.
    I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge is dismissed.

    Yours sincerely,
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 11th Sep 17, 7:53 PM
    • 10,196 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    That looks like a 100% cast iron loser to me. Please read what wins at POPLA in the POPLA DECISIONS thread.
    • KeithP
    • By KeithP 11th Sep 17, 8:09 PM
    • 3,625 Posts
    • 1,839 Thanks
    KeithP
    Just to add:

    The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 (UTCCs) was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act on 1 October 2015.
    .
    • greg2424
    • By greg2424 11th Sep 17, 8:55 PM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    greg2424
    That looks like a 100% cast iron loser to me. Please read what wins at POPLA in the POPLA DECISIONS thread.
    Originally posted by Guys Dad
    I don't think you were broad enough with your critique and advice.... 1) Any part in particular which makes it a loser? You say 100% loser which to me indicates it gets thrown in the bin and start completely over not using any part of this one. 2) Any particular post from the POPLA thread of 2,700 you directed me to worth a look?

    I read through a number of the posts, in fact I have been trawling through for days, there are only 2 ANPR related appeals from what I can see in the POPLA decisions thread and neither provide much detail as to the appeals letter.
    • greg2424
    • By greg2424 12th Sep 17, 8:55 AM
    • 23 Posts
    • 4 Thanks
    greg2424
    OK, I have now revisited the car park in question and the signage is poor. I have taken a number of pictures to prove this point. I have wrote the below letter but obviously the photos have not come out onto the forum. Can someone advise how I can upload the redacted PDF version of the below so that you can view the images also?

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Re: Parking Charge Reference number [xxxxxxx]! Vehicle registration: [xxxxxxxx]

    I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and have received the above demand from NCP.

    My appeal to NCP was rejected and they gave me POPLA code [xxxxxxxxx].

    The basis of my appeal is: Unclear/Obscured Signage and No Offense committed
    I am the keeper of the vehicle with the above registration, the driver was not able to observe the one “ANPR” sign located on the CL side entrance of the car park due to a tall vehicle obscuring the signage. As you will note from the below, the entrance to the car park has no height restrictions in place which means that vehicles of any size can enter the car park and spaces are available directly in front of the one sign from that side of the car park (pictures not taken at the time of the alleged offense). It is also noteworthy that the “main” entrance sign makes no mention of the ANPR system in legible or reasonable lettering. The only mention is small text underneath the camera icon which itself is small from an entering drivers “point of view”. It cannot be assumed that either the camera or the text underneath it can be observed in a vehicle travelling at 15-20 miles per hour.

    Additionally, and moving onto the second part of the appeal, the vehicle was not parked in a space but instead waiting to use the on-site car wash. The driver abandoned the carwash after 15 minutes deciding to opt for a different one located elsewhere in town. As the driver continued the route through the car park to the TS exit, it is clear from the photos below that there are no indications throughout the car park that ANPR is in use.

    I contend it is wholly unreasonable to rely on unlit signs in an attempt to profit by charging a disproportionate sum where no loss has been caused by a car in a car park not situated in any bays. I put NCP to strict proof to justify that their charge, under the circumstances described.
    I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge is dismissed.

    Yours sincerely,
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