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  • FIRST POST
    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 5th Aug 17, 8:06 PM
    • 21Posts
    • 7Thanks
    Smartie77
    Charge for parking in a free NHS car park. (Parking Eye)
    • #1
    • 5th Aug 17, 8:06 PM
    Charge for parking in a free NHS car park. (Parking Eye) 5th Aug 17 at 8:06 PM
    • I didn't know about the new system put there. I didn't see the signs on the way in. Apparently the car had to be registered on some kind of machine.
    • (deleted)
    • The car was parked for 10 minutes.
    • The car park was free to use anyway.
    • There were lots of spaces in the car park
    Is it safe to ignore the letters?

    On a previous occasion, I parked my own car overnight at a B&Q car park, didn't see the signs, got charged but ignored the letters and nothing happened.
    Last edited by Smartie77; 06-08-2017 at 12:51 AM.
Page 3
    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 15th Aug 17, 11:51 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Smartie77
    For the record, here are the particulars of claim.

    Claim for monies outstanding from the defendant, as registered keeper, in relation to a parking charge, issued **/12/2016, for parking on private land in breach of the terms and conditions (the contract). ParkingEye's automated number plate recognition system, monitoring ******** Hospital, Patient and Visitor Centre, ******** ******** ******** captured vehicle ******** entering and leaving the car park without authorisation. The signage, clearly displayed at the entrance to and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, is managed by ParkingEye Ltd, and authorisation is required to park, along with other T&C's by which those who park on the site agree to be bound. In accordance with the T&C's set out in the signage the Parking Charge became payable. Notice under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 has been given under Sch 4, making the keeper liable. This claim is in reference to Parking charge(s) ******** /********
    There's a table.

    Amounts claimed: £70
    Court fee: £25
    Legal representative's costs: £50
    Total amount: £145
    I'll attempt writing another defence soon.
    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 20th Aug 17, 5:02 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Smartie77
    How's this?

    ******** is the registered keeper of the vehicle with registration ******** .

    1. It is denied that:
    a. The defendent owes the claimant any money.
    b. The defendent owes the claimant £70 in amounts claimed.
    c. The defendent owes the claimant £25 in court fee.
    d. The defendent owes the claimant £50 in legal representative's costs.

    2. The defendent did not knowingly enter a contract with the claimant.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 20th Aug 17, 7:16 PM
    • 52,914 Posts
    • 66,453 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would never just submit that as a defence, especially not v ParkingEye; they will have you for dinner.

    It misses out things to hang your hat on later, e.g. (off the top of my head):

    unclear signs among all the Hospital signage, not seen or visible to the driver
    BPA Grace period not adhered to
    no standing/landowner authority,
    no agreement on the charge,
    mitigating circumstances, if any
    no evidence where the car was in the ten minutes (bearing in mind there's a drop off zone/allowance)
    distinguishing the facts from the Beavis case,
    unconscionable charge with no legitimate interest saving it from the penalty rule,
    breach of the NHS car parking Principles...etc.
    Last edited by Coupon-mad; 23-08-2017 at 9:46 PM.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 21st Aug 17, 2:34 PM
    • 1,579 Posts
    • 1,727 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    That isnt a defence.

    You always attack PE claiming £50 filig fee. They can only charge ACTUAL costs, and they file so many claims, with the same particulars, that their internal staff - salaried - cant spend more than 5 mnutes on the claim..
    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 23rd Aug 17, 1:05 AM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Smartie77
    Shall I say that the claimant's legal representitive is not employed by the defendant?

    I can add this:

    3. Whether the signage was clearly displayed in December 2016 is an opinion. There is still the possibility that the signage will not be seen by chance or looked for.

    4. The claimant did not state who drove the defendant's vehicle into and out of the car park.

    5. The claimant did not provide photographic evidence of the vehicle parked in the car park.

    6. A penalty charge of £70 for a car being in a car park for 10 minutes is excessive, especially considering that the car park is free to use.
    Does any of it qualify as defence?
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 23rd Aug 17, 11:33 AM
    • 1,579 Posts
    • 1,727 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Shall I say that the claimant's legal representitive is not employed by the defendant?
    Originally posted by Smartie77
    Huh? Thats a complete nonsense statement. Of course the claimants legal reps arent employed by you, the defendant. Why would you hire them ?

    The claimants legal reps are in house, mployed and salaried as normal members of staff. They are doing exactly what they are paid to do.

    I can add this:



    Does any of it qualify as defence?
    4) No. Not ID'ing the driver is entirely unimportant where POFA has been met.
    5) They'll claim the whole stay counts as parking. So you need to address that.
    6) Are you equipped to argue against the SUPREME COURT judgement of Parking Eye vs Beavis? Which was an overstay in a free car park? Have you eevn heard of this?

    Have you actually read the NEWBIES thread yet? Post 2, about court cases.

    Have you read any other defences, to understand even the first step of what a defence IS - which is a series of legal arguments?
    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 23rd Aug 17, 9:12 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Smartie77
    6) Are you equipped to argue against the SUPREME COURT judgement of Parking Eye vs Beavis? Which was an overstay in a free car park? Have you eevn heard of this?
    Originally posted by nosferatu1001
    I've heard of it. I don't know what to do with it. I see that the PDF file is 124 pages long and most of it just goes over my head.
    Have you read any other defences, to understand even the first step of what a defence IS - which is a series of legal arguments?
    I'm not even sure what legal argument is.

    All I can think of now is that ParkingEye can't prove that we saw the signage. They're assuming we did. That's really what this is all about. If we saw the signs, we would have followed the instructions on them.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 23rd Aug 17, 9:53 PM
    • 52,914 Posts
    • 66,453 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    All I can think of now is that ParkingEye can't prove that we saw the signage. They're assuming we did. That's really what this is all about. If we saw the signs, we would have followed the instructions on them.
    We are not saying that's not one defence point to try, but what will you be left with when face to face with PE's hired 'legal gun' at the hearing, if the Judge dismisses that and is impressed by the other side's arguments and photos of signs, and likes the fact that this is ParkingEye, who won on signage (among other things) at the Supreme Court...?

    They don't have to prove you saw the signs, only that the signs were plentiful and clear, and ''there to be seen'' by an average driver - the Supreme Court lapped it up.

    I gave you a list of possible defence points above, and the NEWBIES thread shows examples of robust defence wording, many cases linked painstakingly as examples to help newbies, do matching the points I suggested. Merge the two things together and you have the makings of a draft defence.

    It needs to cover all the bases, now, you can't add new defence points later.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 24th Aug 17, 2:33 AM
    • 1,579 Posts
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    nosferatu1001
    A legal argument is - a lack of signage means no contract was entered into... or they have not met keeper compliance under pofa therefore the keeper is not liable. It's an argument from a legal defence. It isn't mitigating circumstances. Certainly state the signs were not seen, and therefore no contract could have been accepted, but you can't just say"prove we saw it"- because they only hsve to show a better than 50:50 chance that you DID. They'll provide 10'page of site maps and photos showing there's no way a sign wasn't somehow visible anywhere in the car park. They'll say look, in BEAVIS we won on signage so we should win here , because the uk Supreme Court says we di - they don't, but they'll try it as an argument!

    That's why I'm saying don't try that argument. Certainly not as your only argument.
    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 27th Aug 17, 12:49 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Smartie77
    I think I have another argument. The car was in the car park in December but I think the first letter I saw was delivered after the 14 day period after the day the car was parked. See section 9, paragraph 5 here: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9/schedule/4/enacted

    I'm just not totally sure. The letters are now lost.
    Last edited by Smartie77; 27-08-2017 at 3:26 PM.
    • nosferatu1001
    • By nosferatu1001 27th Aug 17, 5:45 PM
    • 1,579 Posts
    • 1,727 Thanks
    nosferatu1001
    Well you can allege pofa was not met, and require them to prove it.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Aug 17, 8:36 PM
    • 52,914 Posts
    • 66,453 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Yes allege it anyway and don't state who was driving.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 30th Sep 17, 12:05 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Smartie77
    I have a new letter from the County Court Business Centre. There is a form to fill in with the title "Directions questionnaire (Small Claims Track)". It asks if I "agree to this case being referred to the Small Claims Mediation Service".

    I think I should answer with no to make it more difficult for the claimant since the claimant will have to decide whether it's worth paying the hearing fee. The defendant would have a lot of difficulty simply travelling to the court though.
    • Redx
    • By Redx 30th Sep 17, 12:32 PM
    • 17,200 Posts
    • 21,496 Thanks
    Redx
    the BARGEPOLE posts linked in the NEWBIES sticky thread help you with all of this

    you really need to keep reading post #2 of that thread to keep up to date with this difficult topic

    and the court will be a local court to you , the claimant may travel or may appoint a local rep to represent them there. A personal appearance is what is required, not mediation
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 30th Sep 17, 12:34 PM
    • 52,914 Posts
    • 66,453 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    The defendant would have a lot of difficulty simply travelling to the court though.
    Why? Your local County court can't be that far.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Smartie77
    • By Smartie77 8th Jan 18, 8:20 PM
    • 21 Posts
    • 7 Thanks
    Smartie77
    There is a new letter from the court. It says:

    "IT IS ORDERED THAT This case is struck out due to non payment of the hearing fee."

    I guess Parking Eye realised that it just wasn't worth it. I think they would have also had to compensate me for loss of earnings if I went to the court as a witness.
    • claxtome
    • By claxtome 8th Jan 18, 9:34 PM
    • 482 Posts
    • 527 Thanks
    claxtome
    Good to hear. Time for a
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