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    • bandybox
    • By bandybox 28th Jul 17, 6:00 PM
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    bandybox
    Time limit to issue PCN ? Please Help
    • #1
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:00 PM
    Time limit to issue PCN ? Please Help 28th Jul 17 at 6:00 PM
    PCN received in post from private parking agency. Alleged infringment recorded as 23rd June, via ANPR - PCN issued 24 July, received 27th July 2017 asking for either payment or declaration to the driver details. Is this a Notice to Keeper ? and does the fact it was not issued to keeper within 14 days as per POFA 2012 Section 9 warrant an appeal ? How should the appeal be worded ? I've read the 'newbie' post but want to be sure. There has not been and will not be any declaration as to who the driver was.
Page 1
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 28th Jul 17, 6:07 PM
    • 7,648 Posts
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    pappa golf
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:07 PM
    • #2
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:07 PM
    should be delivered within 14 days in order to rely on POFA2012, if

    this is ANPR type ticket (ie no ticket on car)
    the vehicle is not leased / hire and the V5 is registed with the DVLA at the correct address

    if there was a ticket placed on the car at the time , they cannot apply for keeper details from DVLA for 28 days (+1) and the NKT must be RECIEVED by day 56

    private parking agency

    who?
    Last edited by pappa golf; 28-07-2017 at 6:13 PM.
    • bandybox
    • By bandybox 28th Jul 17, 6:27 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    bandybox
    • #3
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:27 PM
    • #3
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:27 PM
    No ticket on car.
    V5 registered to keeper (not necessarily the driver !) at correct address

    Agency - Civil Enforcement (Ltd ?)

    Clearly shows date of parking, 23rd June, PCN dated 24th July, received 27th July.

    So, how does one go about righting the wrong ?
    • Redx
    • By Redx 28th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    • 16,540 Posts
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    Redx
    • #4
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    • #4
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    you dont

    you send the blue text appeal from that NEWBIES sticky thread (appealing as KEEPER)
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #5
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    • #5
    • 28th Jul 17, 6:30 PM
    And CEL will likely cancel first time, when they see the forum appeal. It works!

    You don't need to add stuff about the time taken for the NTK to arrive.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bandybox
    • By bandybox 28th Jul 17, 7:03 PM
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    • 3 Thanks
    bandybox
    • #6
    • 28th Jul 17, 7:03 PM
    • #6
    • 28th Jul 17, 7:03 PM
    you mean this text below ? I would think the first response from CEL would be to argue about the signage ? Whilst it's true enough, the qaulity of the signage is a point of debate whereas failing to meet the terms of POFA 2012 is hard and fast ? Is the keeper not on more solid ground to raise the issue of the NTK timing ?

    Dear Sirs

    Re: PCN No. ....................

    I challenge this 'PCN' as keeper of the car.

    I believe that your signs fail the test of 'large lettering' and prominence, as established in ParkingEye Ltd v Beavis. Your unremarkable and obscure signs were not seen by the driver, are in very small print and the terms are not readable to drivers.

    There will be no admissions as to who was driving and no assumptions can be drawn. You must either rely on the POFA 2012 and offer me a POPLA code, or cancel the charge.

    Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause, please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach. Your aggressive business practice and unwarranted threat of court for the ordinary matter of a driver using my car without causing any obstruction nor offence, has caused significant distress to me.

    I do not give you consent to process data relating to me or this vehicle. I deny liability for any sum at all and you must consider this letter a Section 10 Notice under the DPA. You are required to respond within 21 days. I have kept proof of submission of this appeal and look forward to your reply.

    Yours faithfully,
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 28th Jul 17, 7:05 PM
    • 7,648 Posts
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    pappa golf
    • #7
    • 28th Jul 17, 7:05 PM
    • #7
    • 28th Jul 17, 7:05 PM
    do as you wish ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    • Redx
    • By Redx 28th Jul 17, 7:08 PM
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    Redx
    • #8
    • 28th Jul 17, 7:08 PM
    • #8
    • 28th Jul 17, 7:08 PM
    very few signs in england and wales meet the BPA CoP definition on signage , so perhaps 98% of signs fail the CoP and so I doubt that CEL signs actually comply

    plus they may not have a valid and in date landholder contract in place

    so your best bet is to accept that we know what we are doing and do as we say , which is to send that blue text template "as is"

    maybe when you understand the topic you can debate it , but at the moment you dont
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Jul 17, 9:23 PM
    • 15,516 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #9
    • 28th Jul 17, 9:23 PM
    • #9
    • 28th Jul 17, 9:23 PM
    do as you wish ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Originally posted by pappa golf

    maybe when you understand the topic you can debate it , but at the moment you dont
    Originally posted by Redx
    Precisely. Why come for advice then argue against it?

    Sometimes I think PG is right!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • pappa golf
    • By pappa golf 28th Jul 17, 9:31 PM
    • 7,648 Posts
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    pappa golf
    sometimes? .......
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 28th Jul 17, 9:36 PM
    • 15,516 Posts
    • 24,237 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    sometimes? .......
    Originally posted by pappa golf
    LOL

    I meant in the context of 'do as you wish' aka, 'ignore expert advice, given freely by those who dedicate huge amounts of their own time to understanding this and know every angle'.

    Instead, if you (the motorist) think you know better, then who are we to interfere!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 28th Jul 17, 9:52 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,136 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    I would think the first response from CEL would be to argue about the signage ?
    Really?! Try it!
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bandybox
    • By bandybox 28th Jul 17, 10:51 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    bandybox
    I clearly hit nerves inadvertently. I do appreciate and will follow advice given - guys like you know the score and that's exactly why I logged in here in the first place. I asked a question in my willingness to learn. My job sees many contractual challenges of a very different nature and I've found it's always better to try gain an understanding than follow blindly. My question was by way of educating myself, not a challenge to your wisdom or knowledge.

    I will be pasting the blue text into the appeals link tomorrow and I will let you know how I get on.

    Thank you all !
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 29th Jul 17, 12:26 PM
    • 51,532 Posts
    • 65,136 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Here's one we did earlier:

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5680708

    Loads like that - yours will be the same.

    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • bandybox
    • By bandybox 11th Sep 17, 8:21 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    bandybox
    Hi All. Some further advice please. I submitted my appeal, by email (formal letter attached to the email) on 30th July 2017. I received a response, by email by return which stated that they would reply, by letter (post), within 28 days. The automated response tells me that the appeal was rexceived, but then I've heard absolutley nothing since.

    Do I chase it up ? Surely they can;t just 'drop' the case when I've asked for a POPLA code ?

    Not sure how long I leave it or whether I should be asking for the case to be closed down ?


    Help appreciated.


    Thanks in advance.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Sep 17, 8:47 PM
    • 15,516 Posts
    • 24,237 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    To comply with BPA Code of Practice requirements they do have 35 days to respond to an initial appeal, although that time must be just about up by now.

    Before you complain to the BPA (cc David Dunford of the DVLA) visit the CEL website and go as if to pay the parking charge notice - that will give you the current status of the charge.

    If it's no longer showing (or 'closed' - or similar) then the initial appeal will have persuaded them to cancel. It's not unexpected not to get confirmation of a cancellation - you're not dealing with an industry blessed with much professionalism.

    If it remains 'open', double check the deadline for 35 days and if already passed, complaints time!
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • bandybox
    • By bandybox 11th Sep 17, 10:48 PM
    • 6 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    bandybox
    Thank you umkomaas.. I just logged in and checked as you suggest. "Amount Outstanding £0".

    So I guess that's it. It is almost more frustrating that after all the headache they cause they just leave you in a state of unknown. But then as you say, I don't think they're blessed with wisdom or manners.

    Anyhow, big thank you to everyone on MSE... great outcome !


    Cheees again !
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 11th Sep 17, 10:57 PM
    • 15,516 Posts
    • 24,237 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Looking good, but just a minor 'health warning' - to be absolutely certain you really need written confirmation from them. Without that, I'd keep all the paperwork you've received/written in a file just in case this jumps up and bites you. They have 6 years to pursue any alleged 'debt', so my advice is 'safety first'. You need to just keep it somewhere safe given that most PPCs are unpredictable.

    Do take a screen shot of their webpage showing a 'Nil' balance.

    As I said, unlikely that you'll hear any more, but just a minor health warning.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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