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    • rogcal
    • By rogcal 27th Sep 17, 5:09 PM
    • 198 Posts
    • 112 Thanks
    rogcal
    A right old conundrum - Unknown Land Registry Charge
    In 2003 my wife and I entered in to a mortgage with Abbey National and in 2005 we remortgaged with Halifax at which point the Abbey mortgage was redeemed.

    In 2015 we paid off the Halifax mortgage.

    Fast forward to today and we get a call from the solicitor handling the sale of our property advising that in Feb 2010 a charge was entered against our property in the register and as we had told them we were mortgage free, could we explain why Santander had a charge on our property.

    I suspect that when Santander finally finished operating Abbey in Jan 2010 they went through the "books" and for whatever reason decided to enter a charge on the register against our property.

    It's only at times like this that you wished that there was some form of automatic notification made by the LR that a charge is made against your property. In our case it's just a bloody nuisance that needs sorting out and hopefully will not delay the sale of our property but the possibility of people committing fraud by borrowing money on property they do not own would be made that little bit harder if home/land owners were notified when a charge was placed on their property.
  • jamesd
    rogcal, HM Land registry offers a Property Alert service which will send you an email if there's a change, as well as occasional emails reassuring you that nothing has changed. You can sign up for alerts to properties that are relevant to you, not just your own. A landlord's or one you're the landlord of, say.

    You'd be hard pressed to find this on their site. Even knowing it exists I couldn't find it by browsing around and relied on Google's search instead. The closest choice on their main page to "Sign up for email alerts" looks promising but doesn't even provide a link to this service. It's under search property ownership information then on the right there's a link to "Protect your land and property from fraud" and if you click on that the text contains a link titled "sign up to get property alerts" that finally takes you to it.
    • rogcal
    • By rogcal 27th Sep 17, 10:42 PM
    • 198 Posts
    • 112 Thanks
    rogcal
    Thanks James, I have already signed up for alerts on my property (and the one I'm buying) and have also read on the LR website that for £40 you can have an entry made on the register for your property that ensures certain additional procedures must be carried out before any changes are made. I shall be doing that for my new property but it beggars the question that with rising LR title fraud, why don't the LR make it part of the process when registering all titles to a new proprietor and that way make fraud nigh on impossible. With all transactions being covered with this extra protection it would be very cost effective and perhaps as little as a tenner would need to be added to the standard fee.
  • Land Registry
    In 2003 my wife and I entered in to a mortgage with Abbey National and in 2005 we remortgaged with Halifax at which point the Abbey mortgage was redeemed.

    In 2015 we paid off the Halifax mortgage.

    Fast forward to today and we get a call from the solicitor handling the sale of our property advising that in Feb 2010 a charge was entered against our property in the register and as we had told them we were mortgage free, could we explain why Santander had a charge on our property.

    I suspect that when Santander finally finished operating Abbey in Jan 2010 they went through the "books" and for whatever reason decided to enter a charge on the register against our property.

    It's only at times like this that you wished that there was some form of automatic notification made by the LR that a charge is made against your property. In our case it's just a bloody nuisance that needs sorting out and hopefully will not delay the sale of our property but the possibility of people committing fraud by borrowing money on property they do not own would be made that little bit harder if home/land owners were notified when a charge was placed on their property.
    Originally posted by rogcal
    I suspect the reality here was that the charge had never been removed when redeemed as the change form Abbey National Plc to Santander was in early 2010 and the registered details would have simply been updated re that change

    So no new charge was registered just a change to the details fo the existing one.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Land Registry
    Thanks James, I have already signed up for alerts on my property (and the one I'm buying) and have also read on the LR website that for £40 you can have an entry made on the register for your property that ensures certain additional procedures must be carried out before any changes are made. I shall be doing that for my new property but it beggars the question that with rising LR title fraud, why don't the LR make it part of the process when registering all titles to a new proprietor and that way make fraud nigh on impossible. With all transactions being covered with this extra protection it would be very cost effective and perhaps as little as a tenner would need to be added to the standard fee.
    Originally posted by rogcal
    The restriction you refer to is aimed at owners who do not live at the actual property against which they wish to register it.

    Our Blog article will be of interest as far as our thoughts around the subject and the services we offer.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • rogcal
    • By rogcal 29th Sep 17, 12:06 PM
    • 198 Posts
    • 112 Thanks
    rogcal
    Thanks LR.

    Although I can understand the need to have the restriction on the title for properties at which the owner does not reside however, fraudsters are getting very sophisticated and accessing and diverting an owner occupier's specific mail i.e. mail from the LR, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Think of carers and others that may have access to a vulnerable person's property on a daily basis.

    For the sum £40 and even though an owner occupier, I shall be protecting the title of my property.

    On the matter of the Santander charge, as it is on the title of some land associated with the title of our main property, I suspect that the solicitor dealing with the redemption of the Abbey mortgage overlooked the fact that the mortgage charge was applied to two titles and only applied to have it removed from one, leaving the other remaining and which in 2010 was changed from Abbey to Santander.
  • jamesd
    Could you clarify a difference in requirements in the RQ form please?

    Section 4: an individual must declare "I am not/we are not living at the property and do not intend to do so." No time bound, any intention to live there ever and you're barred.

    Section 5: a conveyancer must declare that "I am instructed that they are not living at the property and have no immediate intention to do so."

    Why the huge timescale difference between only immediate future if a conveyancer submits the form but to the end of time if a proprietor does?

    This is relevant to me since I own a long term vacant property that I intend to get refurbished before it becomes my home some months later. With many more people having access the fraud risk will increase for a while but I seem barred from applying for the protection except via a conveyancer.

    Of course Land Registry processing times may make this useless for the time at increased risk, though the restriction would presumably remain.

    I also wonder what additional protection "No disposition of the registered estate by the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by a conveyancer that that conveyancer is satisfied that the person who executed the document submitted for registration as disponor is the same person as the proprietor" adds, given than mandatory money laundering identification requirements imposed on solicitors and other conveyancers? In particular, a solicitor acting for a vendors is required to verify the identity of their customer and one acting for a buyer or lender is required to obtain certification that this has been done. At least based on a recent decision where a solicitor was ordered to pay redress after failings in this process, though I forget which end of the transaction they were on. Not the SDT case in my next post. So what gap(s) is the restriction trying to close?

    Not expecting perfect protection, rather trying to learn more about the subject. Not just interested for my own property but also to learn more in connection with checking the security proffered in P2P lending, which can sometimes be ... less than precisely as described.
    Last edited by jamesd; 29-09-2017 at 1:47 PM.
  • jamesd
    fraudsters are getting very sophisticated and accessing and diverting an owner occupier's specific mail i.e. mail from the LR, is not beyond the realms of possibility. Think of carers and others that may have access to a vulnerable person's property on a daily basis.
    Originally posted by rogcal
    You might find the five fraudulent transactions described in the Solicitors Disciplinary Tribunal decision in the case between Solicitors' Regulation Authority and Ernest Hedwa M u g a d z a* of interest. The solicitor was ordered to be struck off so he could no longer practice after he hired two apparent fraudsters then carried out requests from them to transfer money to parties not connected with a transaction or an entirely bogus transaction. The frauds are described starting at paragraph 12 on page 4.

    The second case notes an absence of any evidence of due diligence to identify the purported selling client. Not that it would necessarily have helped because the solicitor concerned hadn't noticed forged employee documents.

    In these cases the attack was at the solicitor's firm which was required to carry out the identity checks, apparently circumventing the RQ protective restriction's protection even if it had been present. Of course total protection is very tough. And none of the sales actually got as far as a successful transfer of ownership at the Land Registry, it was the buyers and lenders who could have lost money. That being the critical protection for owners that is at the core of the LR duty, so good that that aspect worked ultimately.

    In the peer to peer lending first fraud in paragraph 12 the lenders got all of their money back about a month later but I don't know who paid.

    *Please don't remove the spaces, the individual is also a victim and while I should give the case name I chose to do it in a way that makes searches less likely to find it.
    Last edited by jamesd; 30-09-2017 at 2:40 PM.
    • F_Bear
    • By F_Bear 29th Sep 17, 9:34 PM
    • 331 Posts
    • 141 Thanks
    F_Bear
    splitting a property and boundary issues
    need some help regarding the splitting of a property which basically made the workshop and house 2 different property's, a and b. A been the house and B the shop.

    a contract was written up with shop plus 1 metre of land around said shop. land register drawing only shows 1 meter around back of shop, not the side :-/

    new owner moves into house and says we have no right to use the 1 meter along the side as its not on the land register map.

    where do we stand?
    • G_M
    • By G_M 29th Sep 17, 9:42 PM
    • 41,497 Posts
    • 47,897 Thanks
    G_M
    need some help regarding the splitting of a property which basically made the workshop and house 2 different property's, a and b. A been the house and B the shop.

    a contract was written up with shop plus 1 metre of land around said shop. land register drawing only shows 1 meter around back of shop, not the side :-/

    new owner moves into house and says we have no right to use the 1 meter along the side as its not on the land register map.

    where do we stand?
    Originally posted by F_Bear
    Duplicate post. See

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5719713

    (I hate these....)
  • Land Registry
    Could you clarify a difference in requirements
    Originally posted by jamesd
    It's all about your interpretation. Your own statement that you do not intend to is the same as a conveyancer stating you have no immediate intention to do so.

    The basic premise behind the purpose of the restriction is that absent owners can seek additional protection. If you are buying a property and doing it up to live in you do not intend to be an absent owner by most definitions.

    No disposition of the registered estate by the proprietor of the registered estate is to be registered without a certificate signed by a conveyancer that that conveyancer is satisfied that the person who executed the document submitted for registration as disponor is the same person as the proprietor[/I]" adds,
    by jamesd;73191964 I also wonder what additional protection "[I
    The certification is with regards the disponor's identity and whilst the checks you refer to are anticipated the lodging conveyancer is only required to confirm that they are satisfied that sufficient steps have been taken. Certifying the identity as per the RQ is a step further
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Land Registry
    need some help regarding the splitting of a property which basically made the workshop and house 2 different property's, a and b. A been the house and B the shop.

    a contract was written up with shop plus 1 metre of land around said shop. land register drawing only shows 1 meter around back of shop, not the side :-/

    new owner moves into house and says we have no right to use the 1 meter along the side as its not on the land register map.

    where do we stand?
    Originally posted by F_Bear
    G_M has covered it in the duplicated thread
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • G_M
    • By G_M 29th Sep 17, 11:08 PM
    • 41,497 Posts
    • 47,897 Thanks
    G_M
    B-h*ll Mr LR Rep. You're not still in the office are you?

    Hope they pay you overtime rates!
  • Land Registry
    B-h*ll Mr LR Rep. You're not still in the office are you?

    Hope they pay you overtime rates!
    Originally posted by G_M
    LOL - We don't like to let the e-gap get too large between comments if we can help it. And it had been a 'tough day' trying to help some homeowners and this forum can be quite cathartic but no extra monies earned
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
    • G_M
    • By G_M 30th Sep 17, 4:58 PM
    • 41,497 Posts
    • 47,897 Thanks
    G_M
    Good to hear.

    Hope you feel better soon and they are able to remove the catheter.

    Hugs!
    • rogcal
    • By rogcal 30th Sep 17, 5:50 PM
    • 198 Posts
    • 112 Thanks
    rogcal
    "remove the catheter"

    I've heard of thread drift before but from LR issues to urology is quite something.
    • pernes
    • By pernes 6th Oct 17, 5:18 PM
    • 217 Posts
    • 10 Thanks
    pernes
    Documents bulk buy
    If I was to ask for 35 copies of leases would there be a cheaper price?
    • WelshKitty85
    • By WelshKitty85 7th Oct 17, 4:07 PM
    • 641 Posts
    • 5,758 Thanks
    WelshKitty85
    Could the Land Registry please advise what the current wait time is for title plans to be updated? There was a dispute over a strip of land next to a house we are purchasing. I understand that the seller and their neighbour have reached an agreement and that the paperwork was sent early last week. We were planning to complete around 10th September, but have been told it may be closer to the 22nd now due to delays with the land registry.
    Originally posted by WelshKitty85
    Can Land Registry please help. I have tried emailing but had no response. We are still being delayed on our house purchase until the title plan is updated. As I understand it, the neighbour disagreed with the plan drawn up by the land registry and sent back an amended plan, which land registry have declined. However, the neighbour has now stopped responding and even his solicitor has said she is unable to contact him. The vendor thinks the neighbour is deliberately trying to block the sale (I don't know why he would). Would there be a time limit that if the neighbour doesn't respond we can proceed on the basis of the plan Land Registry have drawn up?
    Battling my final debt:
    Credit card - £4844.62(Dec 16) £2835.02
  • Land Registry
    If I was to ask for 35 copies of leases would there be a cheaper price?
    Originally posted by pernes
    No - same price for each
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
  • Land Registry
    Can Land Registry please help. I have tried emailing but had no response. We are still being delayed on our house purchase until the title plan is updated. As I understand it, the neighbour disagreed with the plan drawn up by the land registry and sent back an amended plan, which land registry have declined. However, the neighbour has now stopped responding and even his solicitor has said she is unable to contact him. The vendor thinks the neighbour is deliberately trying to block the sale (I don't know why he would). Would there be a time limit that if the neighbour doesn't respond we can proceed on the basis of the plan Land Registry have drawn up?
    Originally posted by WelshKitty85
    The application would not be left open indefinitely but we would need to decide if we go with the new plan suggested by us or revert to what was for example already registered.
    Your seller should contact us to query position and timescales
    Can you tell me when you emailed us please as we should always reply and the email address/form used?
    Last edited by Land Registry; 09-10-2017 at 8:35 AM.
    Official Company Representative
    I am the official company representative of Land Registry. MSE has given permission for me to post in response to queries about the company, so that I can help solve issues. You can see my name on the companies with permission to post list. I am not allowed to tout for business at all. If you believe I am please report it to forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com This does NOT imply any form of approval of my company or its products by MSE"
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