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  • FIRST POST
    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 17th Jul 17, 3:42 PM
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    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    Secure A Space !help with POPLA appeal
    • #1
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:42 PM
    Secure A Space !help with POPLA appeal 17th Jul 17 at 3:42 PM
    As keeper of a vehicle that was issued by a Parking Charge Notice by Secure A Space on 30 May 2017 in the North London Business Park in Barnet, I am seeking help from the forum on how to formulate an appeal to POLA.

    The vehicle in question was parked in a bay clearly marked with a large white "V" on the ground immediately in front of the building that was to be visited, and directly above the parking space is a sign that says "Parking for Building 3 Only". There was no Secure A Space sign in close proximity to this space. The driver visited the building for no more than 20 minutes and returned to the vehicle to find a Parking Charge Notice attached to the windscreen.

    The keeper made an appeal to Secure A Space right away (at that point not having read the advice here on the forum to wait until day 26, unfortunately). The grounds for the appeal were:

    1. The charge of 100 is disproportionate given the vehicle was parked for such a short space of time and cannot be based upon any commercially justifiable loss to the landowner.
    2. There was insufficient signage in the car park such that the driver did not see the signage. There was no signage in the area surrounding the bay in which the vehicle was parked, which was clearly indicated as a Visitors' bay, that a fee was payable.

    Secure A Space acknowledged receipt of the appeal and sent a PDF attached to an email on 4 July notifying that a decision would be rendered in the meantime. In the meantime, on 7 July, a Notice to Keeper document was received from Parking Collection Services (PCS), dated 4 July. The keeper submitted the same appeals material through the PCS's web site but no response was received.

    Secure A Space has sent its appeal decision today and has of course rejected the appeal. The decision includes images of the signage though not showing the proximity of the signage to the parked vehicle. One of the photos they have included clearly shows both the "V" in the parking bay and the sign on the wall immediately in front of the bay that states that the parking space is for Building 3 Only, but which does not include any information concerning the charges for parking etc. The first photo has the timestamp 14:52 and the latest one, with the PCN on the windscreen, at 15:10.

    A 10-digit POPLA code has been provided by Secure A Space and the keeper is now seeking to formulate an appeal.

    The keeper would appreciate any help from the experts here on the forum about how to proceed with putting together an appropriate letter to POPLA.

    Many thanks!
    - PVJ
Page 1
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Jul 17, 3:55 PM
    • 13,579 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #2
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:55 PM
    • #2
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:55 PM
    Standard advice for developing a POPLA appeal is given in the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3, which includes ready to use template appeal points around which to formulate your own appeal. They can be copied and pasted as they stand, provided they relate to your parking event (in most cases they do).

    1. The charge of 100 is disproportionate given the vehicle was parked for such a short space of time and cannot be based upon any commercially justifiable loss to the landowner
    Sorry, but a dead in the water argument since the ParkingEye v Beavis case. Not to be used in a POPLA appeal, as they have in the past just homed in on it (ignoring everything else in the appeal) and rejected.

    Let us see your draft for critique and fine tuning.

    Do not miss your POPLA deadline.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 17th Jul 17, 4:26 PM
    • 8 Posts
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    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • #3
    • 17th Jul 17, 4:26 PM
    • #3
    • 17th Jul 17, 4:26 PM
    Thanks, Umkomaas. The appeals rejection from Secure A Space certainly did mention the Parking Eye vs. Beavis case. Good to know that this should be excluded from the POPLA appeal.

    The keeper has not yet written to the landowner to make a formal complaint, but will do so now.
    Last edited by ProstetnicVogonJeltz; 17-07-2017 at 5:01 PM.
    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 17th Jul 17, 5:49 PM
    • 8 Posts
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    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • #4
    • 17th Jul 17, 5:49 PM
    • #4
    • 17th Jul 17, 5:49 PM
    I have drafted my POPLA Appeal based on the information found in the #3 post in the newbies thread. Please give me some feedback!

    http : // s000.tinyupload.com/index.php ? file_id=70400658144725346286

    (Apologies for the spaces in the URL, but as a newbie I'm not allowed to post links.)

    Thanks very much for your help.
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Jul 17, 6:38 PM
    • 32,044 Posts
    • 16,116 Thanks
    Quentin
    • #5
    • 17th Jul 17, 6:38 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Jul 17, 6:38 PM
    Post it here (with nothing to identify you showing)
    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 17th Jul 17, 7:59 PM
    • 8 Posts
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    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • #6
    • 17th Jul 17, 7:59 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Jul 17, 7:59 PM
    For some reason I'm unable to post... Can you look at the PDF linked in my previous reply?

    Thanks!
    -PVJ
    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 17th Jul 17, 7:59 PM
    • 8 Posts
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    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • #7
    • 17th Jul 17, 7:59 PM
    • #7
    • 17th Jul 17, 7:59 PM
    I think the issue is possibly that the message I'm trying to post is too long !it's about 3000 words.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 17th Jul 17, 8:02 PM
    • 48,045 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 17th Jul 17, 8:02 PM
    • #8
    • 17th Jul 17, 8:02 PM
    Then split it between 2 posts like most people do.

    Or (spare us all the usual stuff please) if you are using the templates from the NEWBIES thread, just put 'signage template from the NEWBIES thread' (not all the wording).
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 17th Jul 17, 8:10 PM
    • 8 Posts
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    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • #9
    • 17th Jul 17, 8:10 PM
    • #9
    • 17th Jul 17, 8:10 PM
    Thanks for the pointers. So here's what I've written:

    Thanks, Quentin. Here it is:

    Re: Parking Charge Notice Number XXXXX
    POPLA Case Verification Code 73XXXXXX01


    Site: NLBP N11 1NP
    Issue date: 30 May 2017

    I am the registered keeper of the above vehicle and I am appealing this parking charge from Secure A Space at the North London Business Park, N11 1NP. To protect the driver, they have not been named.

    My appeal as the registered keeper is as follows:

    1. The signs in this car park are not prominent, clear or legible from all parking spaces and there is insufficient notice of the sum of the parking charge itself

    information about signage as linked to from #3 in the Newbies thread

    In this specific case, even the operators own photographic evidence clearly shows that an unrelated sign stating that the marked bay was for users of Building 3 Only is clearly displayed directly next to the bay chosen by the driver, but the operator has not placed a sign setting out the terms and conditions for parking in the same place, which creates confusion about the parking arrangements for that bay.

    image of vehicle in marked bay, with confusing sign ringed in red

    (This photograph was provided as evidence by the operator: red ring added by me.)

    info about letter height visibility follows

    2. No reasonable grace period allowed

    The operators signs were not located close enough to the parking bay chosen by the driver to be visible. The British Parking Association Code of Practice section 13.2 states:

    You should allow the driver a reasonable grace period in which to decide if they are going to stay or go. If the driver is on your land without permission, you should still allow them a grace period to read your signs and leave before you take enforcement action.

    The driver vacated the car park immediately after becoming aware of the parking restrictions. However, the driver only became aware of the parking restrictions when returning to the vehicle after less than 20 minutes by the presence of the Parking Charge Notice on the car windscreen. The driver did not see any signs placed by the operator until leaving the car park.

    As such, the driver was not given sufficient time to read the signs when first accessing the site and could not reasonably have been aware of these contractual terms before parking.

    3. No evidence of Landowner Authority the operator is put to strict proof of full compliance with the BPA Code of Practice

    info about landowner authority from #3 in Newbies thread follows

    4. The operator has not shown that the individual who it is pursuing is in fact the driver who may have been potentially liable for the charge

    info about keeper liability from #3 in Newbies thread follows

    In the light of the above reasons, I request that POPLA upholds my appeal and instructs Secure A Space to cancel this invalid Parking Charge Notice with immediate effect.
    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 19th Jul 17, 12:14 AM
    • 8 Posts
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    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    I hate to bump this thread, but do any of the regular forumites have any feedback on my POPLA appeal, or should I just go ahead and submit it? Thanks again!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Jul 17, 12:22 AM
    • 48,045 Posts
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    Coupon-mad
    I would remove this line, do not say how long the car was there:
    However, the driver only became aware of the parking restrictions when returning to the vehicle after less than 20 minutes by the presence of the Parking Charge Notice on the car windscreen.
    Save it as a PDF and upload it under OTHER (only 'other') on POPLA's website.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    • By ProstetnicVogonJeltz 19th Jul 17, 12:29 AM
    • 8 Posts
    • 0 Thanks
    ProstetnicVogonJeltz
    Thanks, Coupon-mad. I will do so, and report back in due course.
    • paulT
    • By paulT 19th Jul 17, 12:26 PM
    • 17 Posts
    • 8 Thanks
    paulT
    If you're interested I had exactly the same situation at NLBP - and won with my POPLA appeal. I have a PDF copy which has photos as well. If someone can tell me how I can upload it - I will, or I can just post the text I sent.
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