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  • FIRST POST
    • majorinc
    • By majorinc 16th Jul 17, 6:20 PM
    • 3Posts
    • 3Thanks
    majorinc
    UK CPM taking me to court - public highway illegal ticket
    • #1
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:20 PM
    UK CPM taking me to court - public highway illegal ticket 16th Jul 17 at 6:20 PM
    Hi Guys,

    New here....

    1. Firstly we have a residential block and the road is a public highway and all residents park there.
    2. Brent council has not put any yellow lines in this area where we park.
    3. Management company of the block have recently gave permission to UK CPM to give tickets to the cars parked by the residents on the Brent Council owned road...
    4. UK CPM started issuing tickets, some (few) residents got scared and paid the tickets.
    5. I contacted the Brent Council, and they issued a letter to CPM directly telling them that the road is owned by Brent Council and they should stop issuing tickets. They also confirmed that the road is a public highway.
    6. Brent Councl told the residents to not pay the tickets and told the ones who paid to get a refund.
    7. I didn't pay the ticket, but sent the manager of CPM the email Brent Concil.
    8. Now they have issued me a court order.

    I am now responding to the court online, please can somebody check and tell me if my defense statement is ok or not?

    My defence statement:
    These parking charges are illegal because the company UK CAR PARK MANAGEMENT LIMITED has no authority to issue parking tickets on a public highway.

    When the ticket charges came through, we confirmed that they were illegal and that no 3rd party has permission to give ticket on XXXXX Heights which is a public highway.

    This was confirmed in writing email by Mr John Fletcher who is the Team Leader of Development Control Planning, Transport and Licensing Regeneration of Brent Council.

    Mr John Fletcher directly wrote to Joe Grafton (Head of UK CAR PARK MANAGEMENT) dated 13/02/2017 explaining that the tickets cannot be issued as the area is a public highway.

    The copies of all the official emails from Brent Council have been sent to GLADSTONES SOLICITORS LIMITED and UK CAR PARK MANAGEMENT LIMITED in evidence when appealing the tickets.

    This is complete harassment and the company is trying to extort money through illegal parking tickets.
Page 1
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jul 17, 6:24 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #2
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:24 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:24 PM
    UK CPM started issuing tickets, some (few) residents got scared and paid the tickets.
    5. I contacted the Brent Council, and they issued a letter to CPM directly telling them that the road is owned by Brent Council and they should stop issuing tickets. They also confirmed that the road is a public highway.
    6. Brent Councl told the residents to not pay the tickets and told the ones who paid to get a refund.
    7. I didn't pay the ticket, but sent the manager of CPM the email Brent Concil.
    8. Now they have issued me a court order.
    Wow, just WOW!

    You need to include a counter-claim, matey!

    That defence is not enough - how long do you have to defend this?
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • The Deep
    • By The Deep 16th Jul 17, 6:31 PM
    • 7,384 Posts
    • 6,427 Thanks
    The Deep
    • #3
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:31 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:31 PM
    Unreasonable behaviour, attempting to obtain money bv fraudulent means, unlawfully obtaining personal data, I smell compo.
    You never know how far you can go until you go too far.
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 16th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    • 1,056 Posts
    • 677 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    • #4
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    This parking ticket seems to have about as much validity, as if the OP were to issue a "sitting" ticket to the UK CPM's solicitor, for sitting on a chair in the court. If the parking ticket is valid, because the block's Management Company gave UK CPM permission ; then presumably the permission of some random MSE posters, would be sufficient to make the "sitting" ticket valid.

    Is there any signage, at all ? If not, that should be sufficient grounds ( many cases are won by inadequate signage ) ; if so, then those signs have been erected without authority, damaging public land ; and Brent Council can prosecute them.

    I'd say this is Fraud and Blackmail. So sad that "the stocks" are no longer a lawful punishment.

    Next should be a class action from all those who have paid. Post some flyers to your neighbours.
    • majorinc
    • By majorinc 16th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    majorinc
    • #5
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    • #5
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:42 PM
    You need to include a counter-claim, matey!
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    What do you mean by counter claim?
    Why do i need to do that?
    From what i understand it means to cliam money from them (how much? i have not idea)

    That defence is not enough - how long do you have to defend this?
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    Why is the defence not enough?
    I just got the court order was issued 4 days ago (12 July 2017)
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jul 17, 6:45 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #6
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:45 PM
    • #6
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:45 PM
    Oh you have ages then, as long as the do the AOS on MCOL (see the NEWBIES thread, post #2 which shows you how).

    I suggest we help you make your appeal MUCH more robust and also suggest you consider paying a £25 court fee to counter-claim from them, maybe for £500 to be reasonable.

    Also email David Dunford at the DVLA:

    david.dunford@dvla.gsi.gov.uk

    ...and tell him what has occurred, and make a formal complaint to the local Trading Standards near that road.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • majorinc
    • By majorinc 16th Jul 17, 6:49 PM
    • 3 Posts
    • 3 Thanks
    majorinc
    • #7
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:49 PM
    • #7
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:49 PM
    HAHA

    TBH i am not happy at all to waste time and defend this case when it makes no sense at all.

    They put signange on the block of flats, and on the public lampost.
    Brent council removed the signage from the lampost but left the ones on the property as they do not have rights to touch the property.
    But why would i win a case based on lack of signange when having the sign is illegal itself?

    This parking ticket seems to have about as much validity, as if the OP were to issue a "sitting" ticket to the UK CPM's solicitor, for sitting on a chair in the court. If the parking ticket is valid, because the block's Management Company gave UK CPM permission ; then presumably the permission of some random MSE posters, would be sufficient to make the "sitting" ticket valid.

    Is there any signage, at all ? If not, that should be sufficient grounds ( many cases are won by inadequate signage ) ; if so, then those signs have been erected without authority, damaging public land ; and Brent Council can prosecute them.

    I'd say this is Fraud and Blackmail. So sad that "the stocks" are no longer a lawful punishment.

    Next should be a class action from all those who have paid. Post some flyers to your neighbours.
    Originally posted by Geoff1963
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 16th Jul 17, 7:35 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #8
    • 16th Jul 17, 7:35 PM
    • #8
    • 16th Jul 17, 7:35 PM
    You could win a case that the parking firm had no reasonable cause to obtain your data from the DVLA - wait, did they get your data? Or did you appeal a windscreen PCN and they never enquired of the DVLA as to the registered keeper?

    The DPA claim (for you to claim money in compensation for a data breach) comes in most strongly where the data was supplied by the DVLA. If you do not know you can email the data sharing team at the DVLA and ask, at the same time as making a formal complaint about UKCPM and demanding that they are sanctioned and their ability to obtain data, removed by the DVLA.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 16th Jul 17, 9:29 PM
    • 1,056 Posts
    • 677 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    • #9
    • 16th Jul 17, 9:29 PM
    • #9
    • 16th Jul 17, 9:29 PM
    Brent council removed the signage from the lampost
    I presume Brent council made a charge for doing that, but whoever put it up should have been prosecuted :
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/6
    6 Possession etc. of articles for use in frauds
    (1)A person is guilty of an offence if he has in his possession or under his control any article for use in the course of or in connection with any fraud.

    Any money they have already obtained is also Fraud :
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/35/section/2
    2 Fraud by false representation
    (1)A person is in breach of this section if he—
    (a)dishonestly makes a false representation, and
    (b)intends, by making the representation—
    (i)to make a gain for himself or another, or
    (ii)to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.
    (2)A representation is false if—
    (a)it is untrue or misleading, and
    (b)the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading.
    (3)“Representation” means any representation as to fact or law . . .
    (4)A representation may be express or implied.
    (5)For the purposes of this section a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention).

    I'd like to see some serious jail time.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 16th Jul 17, 9:38 PM
    • 10,206 Posts
    • 9,348 Thanks
    Guys Dad
    The point is that the PPC has acted unreasonably, has had no reason to go to the DVLA for your name and address, has been informed that they are not authorised by the relevant landowner and are trying to extract money under false pretences.

    All this adds up to your opportunity to win £hundreds in court and there may be a regular on here who can point you to such a case where the motorist won. You can also see how a motorist won £900 here http://parking-prankster.blogspot.co.uk/2017/05/motorist-awarded-900-for-data.html

    You would be assured of maximum help here to get a similar settlement - as long as you are 100% sure of your facts !
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Jul 17, 10:06 PM
    • 15,570 Posts
    • 24,308 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    TBH i am not happy at all to waste time and defend this case when it makes no sense at all.
    To quote you back 'TBH', if you don't 'waste time and defend this case', you will lose by default, then you'll either have to pay UKCPM everything they are asking for, or you refuse and gain a credit trashing unsatisfied CCJ against your name, which could mess up your life for the next 6 years.

    You have to take this seriously and deal with it.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Marktheshark
    • By Marktheshark 16th Jul 17, 10:16 PM
    • 5,689 Posts
    • 7,159 Thanks
    Marktheshark
    You must defend the case as said, or you will get a CCJ.

    However, you say the council has written to them and they are still demanding monies ?
    This takes this in to a first for any parking firm and now crosses the line in to a serious organised fraud offence
    I would call your police and ask for a member of the police organised crime and fraud investigation unit to call you so you can make a complaint of a serious and organised fraud.

    To continue and action after the council has written to them crosses in to "complicity to perpetrate" under the fraud act of 2006 section 2 and removes that option of a slap on the wrist.
    The punishment for an offender who willingly and purposely continues to commit such fraud increases the offence to Section 10 of the Act increases the maximum penalty for offences contrary to Section 458 of the Companies Act 1985 which is a crown court only offence for all directors of the said company with a minimum prison sentence of 2 years and maximum of 10 years.

    Make the right calls here and they are doing time.
    Brexit will become whatever they invent it to be.
    • Johnersh
    • By Johnersh 17th Jul 17, 12:35 AM
    • 655 Posts
    • 1,261 Thanks
    Johnersh
    Make the right calls here and they are doing time.
    I fear that all guidelines from the sentencing council may have been overlooked. Let's not get carried away....

    As others have said, this needs to be taken rather more seriously; it requires a robust defence (but robust does not mean pages long - the point is a simple one). If your personal information has been accessed where there was no lawful basis to do so (because the land is not privately owned) it could give rise to a counter claim against the parking company for misuse of your personal data, but you have to properly plead it and commit to it and specify what damages are reasonable in the circumstances.

    It may be worth writing to the parking co to request that they withdraw the claim, providing a copy of the relevant correspondence, making clear that you will call the council as a witness. For those that have asked previously if this matter is as clear as described, this would appear to be an opportune matter in which to seek costs for unreasonable conduct (pursuit of a claim clearly without merit). I would make that point too, explaining that you will seek strike out if they do not discontinue (see below).

    If the usual directions order is made, I would apply to strike out the case and to seek the costs of the application on the papers (without a hearing) as the correspondence should be sufficient to speak for itself. There is a £100 fee for that, but if the Court wants a hearing (as would be usual the fee rises to £255 total. You get that back if successful.

    Finally, you may as well complain to the DVLA about the data misuse. It may just result in more robust vetting procedures before requests are made or data released - not a bad thing at all.
    • Geoff1963
    • By Geoff1963 17th Jul 17, 1:34 AM
    • 1,056 Posts
    • 677 Thanks
    Geoff1963
    I think the OP should gather evidence from anyone who has already lost money ; at the moment they are only facing an unjustified claim. When the OP wins, the other residents can claim what they have actually lost.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 27th Jul 17, 1:53 PM
    • 51,575 Posts
    • 65,192 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    You will like this, it makes GREAT reading!

    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=5563690&page=2

    Also look at hairray's thread that you can find from his member name/click on his name here on MSE. A must-read.

    Also, is your estate this one, or very similar?

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=113814&st=60&gopid=1303917&#en try1303917

    We have Ben1191 and OwlGirl on there, both defending and counter-claiming - I wrote their counter-claim (I post as SRM on that forum) so you can have a copy if you ask them by pm on pepipoo (I don't take pm's).
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

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