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  • FIRST POST
    • Annie021063
    • By Annie021063 16th Jul 17, 1:58 PM
    • 2,514Posts
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    Annie021063
    appealing against fine
    • #1
    • 16th Jul 17, 1:58 PM
    appealing against fine 16th Jul 17 at 1:58 PM
    Hi All
    I received a fine from parking eye for £100. The driver attended a short conference at a hotel but was not aware that they should have given their registration to the hotel reception. The driver will be emailing the blue template letter to the appeal address along with proof that they attended the conference. They also intend to email the hotel head office regarding the fine as they are not backing the driver up at all even though they have proof.
    Is there anything else the driver should do?? The driver admits to being there and arriving and leaving as parking eye state but suggest their signage was insufficient, is this ok??
    many thanks
    Last edited by Annie021063; 17-07-2017 at 2:59 PM.
Page 1
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 16th Jul 17, 4:19 PM
    • 32,384 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #2
    • 16th Jul 17, 4:19 PM
    • #2
    • 16th Jul 17, 4:19 PM
    If you are using the blue appeal in the newbies FAQ then you aren't admitting who was driving.

    So edit your op to remove the details of who was driving
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 16th Jul 17, 4:38 PM
    • 14,003 Posts
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    Umkomaas
    • #3
    • 16th Jul 17, 4:38 PM
    • #3
    • 16th Jul 17, 4:38 PM
    In due course, should the hotel refuse to help, you should be leaving some home-truths review on their TripAdvisor, Facebook and Twitter pages, so others who follow you there will be aware of the trap set for them and from which the hotel provides no assistance to a genuine paying customer.

    Meantime, follow Quentin's advice, get your POPLA code, then the forum will help you draft a strong appeal to POPLA, to kill this off.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Guys Dad
    • By Guys Dad 16th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    • 10,061 Posts
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    Guys Dad
    • #4
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    • #4
    • 16th Jul 17, 6:17 PM
    What do the signs in the car park say? I have seen PE signs that give free parking to hotel guests but fail to explain what the driver has to do.

    Get photos of the signs - and post them up here on tinypics or similar.
    • Annie021063
    • By Annie021063 17th Jul 17, 3:00 PM
    • 2,514 Posts
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    Annie021063
    • #5
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:00 PM
    • #5
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:00 PM
    In due course, should the hotel refuse to help, you should be leaving some home-truths review on their TripAdvisor, Facebook and Twitter pages, so others who follow you there will be aware of the trap set for them and from which the hotel provides no assistance to a genuine paying customer.

    Meantime, follow Quentin's advice, get your POPLA code, then the forum will help you draft a strong appeal to POPLA, to kill this off.
    Originally posted by Umkomaas
    Is how to apply for this code in the newbie section?
    Many thanks
    • Quentin
    • By Quentin 17th Jul 17, 3:08 PM
    • 32,384 Posts
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    Quentin
    • #6
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:08 PM
    • #6
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:08 PM
    Using the blue text appeal is designed to get you one!


    Read up all about it in the newbies thread which everyone is politely asked to do before starting a new thread. You will see there that unless there are special circumstances, the keeper not the driver should be dealing with appealing


    See #2 and edit your OP
    Last edited by Quentin; 17-07-2017 at 3:11 PM.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 17th Jul 17, 3:09 PM
    • 14,003 Posts
    • 21,974 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    • #7
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:09 PM
    • #7
    • 17th Jul 17, 3:09 PM
    Is how to apply for this code in the newbie section?
    Many thanks
    Originally posted by Annie021063
    You use the blue text appeal (unaltered!) from post #1 in the NEWBIES sticky. The PPC will reject that within 35 days and their letter of rejection will include your POPLA code.

    You seem not to have read the sticky, as the above is very basic information contained within it. You will get best help when we see you are doing some research of your own so you are on top of this.

    We have too many cases to deal with to be providing a question by question response when most, if not all answers are in the sticky.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Annie021063
    • By Annie021063 21st Jul 17, 12:12 PM
    • 2,514 Posts
    • 7,978 Thanks
    Annie021063
    • #8
    • 21st Jul 17, 12:12 PM
    • #8
    • 21st Jul 17, 12:12 PM
    Hello again
    Thanks for all your comments, I have been able to give this more of my time now and read more of the newbie section. I received a letter stating that my appeal to ParkingEye was rejected and given a POPLA reference. I have searched the forum and found one template for an appeal to POPLA which resembles my circumstances but there are many comments below the OP that I do not fully understand and in fact the poster paid the fine in the end, something I do not want to do. Could you please look through the letter and let me know if I need to change anything please.
    many many thanks

    POPLA REF: ...............
    PCN REF: ................

    Dear assessor,

    I submit the points below to show that I am not liable for the parking charge:

    1) The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 - No Keeper Liability
    2) Ambiguous, unclear, and misleading signage.
    3) No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers.
    4) No 'relevant obligation' nor 'relevant contract' under Schedule 4 of the POFA.
    5) I rely on the binding authority in Vine v Waltham Forest which was a Court of Appeal judgment, about a driver not seeing the terms and not deemed bound by them.


    1) The Notice to Keeper is not compliant with the POFA 2012 - No Keeper Liability

    The requirements of Schedule 4 POFA are quite clear in that there must be strict compliance with all of its requirements in order to take advantage of the rights granted under that Act to pursue the registered keeper in respect of a driver’s alleged debt. The BPA Ltd AOS Code of Practice (version 5, October 2015) supports the need for strict compliance (para 21.5 refers). ParkingEye has however failed to comply with the statutory requirements as followed.

    a) In regards to paragraph 8(2)(a) of Schedule 4, POFA 2012, the 'period of parking' is not 'specified', only the time and date the parking charge was issued. It does not specify the period of parking as demanded under POFA 2012 paragraph 8(2)(a) and paragraph 7(2)(a). In fact the observation time is not specified. The Notice does not state the period of parking, merely the time of the alleged contravention.

    b) The Notice to Keeper does not, as per Paragraph 8(2)(c), state that a notice to driver relating to the specified period of parking has been given and repeat the information in that notice as required by paragraph 7(2)(b), (c) and (f), with 7(2)(b) requiring that it “describe(s) those charges, the circumstances in which the requirement arose”. The “breach” was alleged to be for “either not purchasing a valid pay and display ticket or parking without a valid permit”, however it does not make clear to the keeper what the maximum period permitted was, and how the driver had (allegedly) exceeded this.

    b) Paragraph 8(2)(e) requires that the Notice to Keeper must “state that the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and invite the keeper—(i) to pay the unpaid parking charges; or (ii) if the keeper was not the driver of the vehicle, to notify the creditor of the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver and to pass the notice on to the driver”. The Notice to Keeper clearly fails to comply with this requirement.



    ParkingEye have failed to comply and thus have not fulfilled all the requirements necessary under POFA to allow them to attempt recovery of any charge from the keeper.



    2) Ambiguous, unclear, and misleading signage

    Since receiving the notice to keeper I have been to review the signs available in the car park to establish if this condition was made clear before parking.

    I noted that the signs are located sparsely in the car park, and the actual “terms and conditions” (T&C) are printed in font so small that it is almost impossible to read when I went to look at the evidence for this appeal. The driver has notified me that the area where the car was had no signs at all and for a vehicle containing 3 passengers that day, I find it shocking that not one of them noticed any signs to state it was pay & display.

    3) No standing or authority to pursue charges nor form contracts with drivers.

    I believe that this Operator has no proprietary interest in the land, so they have no standing to make contracts with drivers in their own right, nor to pursue charges for breach in their own name. In the absence of such title, Parking Eye must have assignment of rights from the landowner to pursue charges for breach in their own right, including at court level. A commercial site agent for the true landholder has no automatic standing nor authority in their own right, which would meet the strict requirements of section 7 of the BPA Code of Practice.

    Section 7 of the British Parking Association (BPA) Code of Practice requires parking operators to have the written authority from the landowner to operate on the land and to enforce charges in the courts in their own name.

    In addition, Section 7.3 states:

    “The written authorisation must also set out:

    a. the definition of the land on which you may operate, so that the boundaries of the land can be clearly defined

    b. any conditions or restrictions on parking control and enforcement operations, including any restrictions on hours of operation

    c. any conditions or restrictions on the types of vehicles that may, or may not, be subject to parking control and enforcement

    d. who has the responsibility for putting up and maintaining signs

    e. the definition of the services provided by each party to the agreement.''

    I therefore put Parking Eye to strict proof to provide POPLA and myself with an unredacted, contemporaneous copy of the contract between Parking Eye and the landowner, not another agent or retailer or other non-landholder, because it will still not be clear that the landowner has authorised the necessary rights to Parking Eye.



    4) No 'relevant obligation' under Schedule 4

    No promise was made by the driver to move the car because of the ambiguity of the sign.

    There can be no keeper liability without a 'relevant obligation' giving rise to a requirement for a driver to pay parking charges. This requirement is defined in Schedule 4 as follows:

    “relevant obligation” means—
    (a)an obligation arising under the terms of a relevant contract; or
    (b)an obligation arising, in any circumstances where there is no relevant contract, as a result of a trespass or other tort committed by parking the vehicle on the relevant land;

    An 'obligation arising from a relevant contract' would be one where the terms are transparent, prominent and clearly communicated to the driver before parking. Neither was this explained in the Notice to Keeper, but in the Notice of Rejection, far too late to be imported into any contract or retrospectively create any obligation.

    A contract is formed in a car park only if terms are clear and accepted/known before parking. This cannot be found to be the case in a car park where the signs are not clearly visible.
    Schedule 4 is specifically dependent in paragraph 3 (below) upon 'adequate notice' of the parking charge being communicated to the driver in advance and this was not the case:

    For the purposes of sub-paragraph (2) “adequate notice” means notice given by—

    (b) ...the display of one or more notices which— (i) specify the sum as the charge for unauthorised parking; and

    (ii) are adequate to bring the charge to the notice of drivers who park vehicles on the relevant land.

    That would require clear and prominent signs throughout the site, carrying wording that is transparent and legible in low light, non-conflicting, and with the terms and 'charge' in large letters (in the Beavis case this was 96 point in bold font).


    5) I rely on the binding authority in Vine v Waltham Forest CA [2000] about a driver not seeing the terms and not deemed bound by them.

    This judgment is binding case law from the Court of Appeal and supports my argument, not the operator's case:

    http://imgur.com/a/AkMCN

    This was a victory for the motorist and found that, where terms on a sign are not seen and the area is not clearly marked/signed with prominent terms, the driver has not consented to - and cannot have 'breached' - an unknown contract because there is no contract capable of being established.

    The driver in that case (who had not seen any signs/lines) had NOT entered into a contract. The recorder made a clear finding of fact that the plaintiff, Miss Vine, did not see a sign because the area was not clearly marked as 'private land' and the signs were obscured/not adjacent to the car and could not have been seen and read from a driver's seat before parking. There was never any suggestion that the plaintiff was other than a truthful witness and the clamping fee extorted from her under no lawful excuse was an act of trespass and the charge had to be refunded.

    That case supports and upholds my appeal and it is a Court of Appeal judgment, binding on lower courts, which is far more relevant than the Beavis case in this instance where All Parking Services UK Ltd's interest is nothing beyond the basic aim to punish/fine any alleged defaulter, without making the terms clearly legible from a driver's seat before parking.

    Where a parking charge is penal with no legitimate interest extending beyond claiming restitutionary damages, it cannot be saved by the Beavis case and the penalty rule remains firmly engaged. This charge must be deemed unenforceable and the PCN not properly given.

    I therefore respectfully request that my appeal is upheld and the charge dismissed.

    Yours faithfully
    Last edited by Annie021063; 21-07-2017 at 1:31 PM.
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 21st Jul 17, 2:56 PM
    • 48,847 Posts
    • 62,345 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    • #9
    • 21st Jul 17, 2:56 PM
    • #9
    • 21st Jul 17, 2:56 PM
    I received a fine from parking eye for £100. The driver attended a short conference at a hotel but was not aware that they should have given their registration to the hotel reception. The driver will be emailing the blue template letter to the appeal address along with proof that they attended the conference. They also intend to email the hotel head office regarding the fine as they are not backing the driver up at all even though they have proof.
    Is there anything else the driver should do??
    Before even trying POPLA, try a major complaint to the Hotel manager - by phone or email. Hotels cancel these ALL the time (but if you try POPLA, PE might refuse to back down).

    So, complaint first. Your POPLA code can go on the back burner for the 28 days, but don't miss using it if Plan A fails. Don't let Plan A fail - you might get it cancelled today by the Hotel, or next week, it is easy if you just find the right person to moan at.
    PRIVATE PCN in England/Wales? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT

    Click on the trail, top of this page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    DON'T read old advice to ignore, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Annie021063
    • By Annie021063 25th Jul 17, 11:56 AM
    • 2,514 Posts
    • 7,978 Thanks
    Annie021063
    Before even trying POPLA, try a major complaint to the Hotel manager - by phone or email. Hotels cancel these ALL the time (but if you try POPLA, PE might refuse to back down).

    So, complaint first. Your POPLA code can go on the back burner for the 28 days, but don't miss using it if Plan A fails. Don't let Plan A fail - you might get it cancelled today by the Hotel, or next week, it is easy if you just find the right person to moan at.
    Originally posted by Coupon-mad
    I sent an email to the head office and just received a reply asking for more details
    I have sent them today
    Thanks
    • Annie021063
    • By Annie021063 1st Aug 17, 8:30 AM
    • 2,514 Posts
    • 7,978 Thanks
    Annie021063
    Not getting anywhere with head office or hotel managers so I have resorted to POPLA appeal now. The letter above does not fit in the 2000 space allowed can I send it as attachment?
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 1st Aug 17, 2:05 PM
    • 14,003 Posts
    • 21,974 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Not getting anywhere with head office or hotel managers so I have resorted to POPLA appeal now. The letter above does not fit in the 2000 space allowed can I send it as attachment?
    Originally posted by Annie021063
    Definitely. Convert your Word document into a .pdf file and attach that. Make sure you cross refer to the attachment in the appeal portal - 'Please find POPLA appeal reference number xxxxxxx attached'. Make sure the reference number is also quoted in your actual appeal.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
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