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  • FIRST POST
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 14th Jul 17, 2:53 PM
    • 33Posts
    • 14Thanks
    Bexter8
    PCN envelope on car but no ticket inside!
    • #1
    • 14th Jul 17, 2:53 PM
    PCN envelope on car but no ticket inside! 14th Jul 17 at 2:53 PM
    I want to appeal a ticket but I don't even know which company is running the parking tickets for the car park. It's Vantage Point car park in Brighton and having googled it there are reviews about unfair £100 fines!!

    I read the newbies thread but it says you have to know if the company is registered before doing anything and I don't know how to find out as there's no actual ticket but I'm guessing they think they've ticketed my car since the yellow sticker was on my car empty.

    My car had a ticket displayed but it turns out that despite there being a MASSIVE sign seen from the road saying £1 per hour, it's actually £1.50 per hour - it was only noticed afterwards that the ticket was until 12:35 and not 13:35. The car left at 13:27 after pictures were taken of the pay and display ticket which says £3 and the big sign above the machine that says £1 per hour. There is a small sign near the ticket machine but the driver didn't notice as she had her toddlers with her and was being aware of other cars, plus she had already seen the huge sign on the building saying £1 per hour. Apparently the price went up in April so they've had plenty of time to take it down or change it!

    Her son ended up having an accident after being at soft play so she was dealing with that as well or actually might have been back earlier and managed to avoid all this hassle! We cannot afford £100!

    Please help, how do I go about finding out without giving away my info in case they are not registered, etc?? They have CCTV.
    Last edited by Bexter8; 22-07-2017 at 3:30 PM.
Page 3
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 3rd Sep 17, 1:19 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Thank you!
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 10:11 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    I'm struggling to figure out how my NTK isn't compliant, I checked the links you guys gave me and it seems to have all the info they're required to give? It's here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B566YVH_AwVqVHRiNWVmaXAtMVE/view?usp=sharing
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B566YVH_AwVqYlZJQ1ZtWWFSNUk/view?usp=sharing

    The only thing I could think was that it doesn't say "One Parking solutions is the creditor"? But is that right? It does clearly have their name and say it's owed to them so I wasn't sure if that was all they need to put. I think it was Coupon Mad who said it wasn't compliant and I should include something about that but I'm struggling, can anyone please give me a hint?

    My POPLA appeal is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10VG_3W9LLm4TTZL-45C39hRyQ1aKruCMw9Bz3tgR0xU/edit?usp=sharing

    I need to send it tonight as the deadline is tomorrow. Thanks!
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Sep 17, 10:22 AM
    • 15,005 Posts
    • 23,583 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Creditor

    Period of Parking (has that been blanked out by you, or is it missing)

    Amount of the parking charge that remains unpaid

    No formal warning 'If after a period of ..........'

    I haven't gone back through the entire thread but was the NtK received between days 28 and 56 after the parking event?

    You need to check everything in Para 8 (for windscreen tickets) of Sched 4 of PoFA, pedantically and laboriously. The PPC getting it 'near enough' is not good enough - and it's your job to raise every omission to POPLA.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Sep 17, 10:25 AM
    • 15,005 Posts
    • 23,583 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    Why haven't you queried 'Landowner Authority' in your POPLA appeal?
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 10:53 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Thanks, the bits I blanked out to hide my details state info like my car make VRM etc, ref no. and says

    Contravention date: 14/07/2017 and the time it was ticketed (they put an empty pocket on windscreen and sent NTK within 14 days),
    Contrvanetion period : N/A to N/A
    Location: Vantage Point, Brighton, BN1 4GW
    Reason: Pay & Display Ticket Expired

    Amount Due within 28 days £100

    In the bit at the bottom - payment slip it says make payable to One Parking Solution.

    It says on the back about appealing within 28 days etc.

    It says they "may" pursue the keeper.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Sep 17, 11:03 AM
    • 15,005 Posts
    • 23,583 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    None of the above make the NtK PoFA-compliant.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 11:08 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    I didn't see Landowner Authority on the sticky links post - will go and do more research. Thanks.
    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 18th Sep 17, 11:11 AM
    • 15,005 Posts
    • 23,583 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I didn't see Landowner Authority on the sticky links post - will go and do more research. Thanks.
    Originally posted by Bexter8
    It's slap bang in the middle of the NEWBIES FAQ sticky, post #3.

    Ready made appeal point for you to copy and paste, but please proof read it carefully to ensure it reflects your case - it won't in absolute detail, but you need to make sure there's nothing in it that is clearly contrary to your circumstances.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 11:26 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Thanks, found it added and adjusted! Just trying to write the NTK non compliance bit now.
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 5:04 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    OK, I think I'm getting there - at work today so been doing bits as and when I can with a million windows open to check other cases as still unsure how to word the non compliant with POFA bit but I have copied some stuff and will edit to fit. Thanks for the help, I'm hoping to get this finished once I get home and the kids are in bed. Any further guidance on the wording of point 3 would be very helpful. I need to read the POFA again too so will do so tonight.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/10VG_3W9LLm4TTZL-45C39hRyQ1aKruCMw9Bz3tgR0xU/edit?usp=sharing

    I'm unsure how I relate to the windscreen PCN vs ANPR rules as there was an empty plastic wallet left on windscreen which said a notice would follow. It was pay and display, not ANPR. I got the NTK within 2 weeks so is it as for ANPR as there was no information to the driver before then? Or maybe they had ANPR as well to monitor movements and swoop in to ticket.
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 9:22 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    I think I'm done. Could someone please give it a quick once over before I send? Thank you so much.

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/10VG_3W9LLm4TTZL-45C39hRyQ1aKruCMw9Bz3tgR0xU/edit?usp=sharing
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 9:34 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Also, just to make sure - I should select both the "I was not improperly parked" as the full 3 hours was paid for (according to the massive sign) as well as "I was not the driver or the registered keeper of the vehicle at the time of the alleged improper parking." as I wasn't the driver - but it seems to want evidence to that effect and I can't prove I wasn't the driver.

    Select
    You bought the vehicle after the alleged improper parking.
    You sold the vehicle before the alleged improper parking.
    You hired a car, but were not the hirer at the time of the alleged improper parking.
    You were not the driver at the time of the alleged improper parking.
    You provided the driver's details, but the parking company continued to pursue you.
    Supporting evidence may include

    Evidence confirming the date the car was purchased or sold
    Evidence that someone else was driving the car at the time of the alleged improper parking
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 18th Sep 17, 9:59 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Arrrggghhh, I'm sorry but I'm finding this so hard, I don't know whether I should send the photo of the ticket (which proves that £3 was paid but also shows the time expired at 2 hours - this wasn't noticed by the driver as she just paid £3 as that's what the sign said and put the ticket in the car.) along with the photo of the sign stating £1 per hour? I know the sticky newbies thing says I don't have to answer so should I just be selecting I was not the driver and not mention the parking being within the time except in my letter (linked above).

    I don't want to blow it now after stressing about it so much and spending hours working out the letter and everything I can appeal based on!
    • Coupon-mad
    • By Coupon-mad 19th Sep 17, 12:02 AM
    • 50,789 Posts
    • 64,194 Thanks
    Coupon-mad
    Bump again...needs some views tomorrow.
    PRIVATE PCN? DON'T PAY BUT DO NOT IGNORE IT TWO Clicks needed for advice:
    Top of the page: Home>>Forums>Household & Travel>Motoring>Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking - read the 'NEWBIES' FAQS thread!
    Advice to ignore is WRONG, unless in Scotland/NI.

    • Umkomaas
    • By Umkomaas 19th Sep 17, 9:35 AM
    • 15,005 Posts
    • 23,583 Thanks
    Umkomaas
    I think I'm done. Could someone please give it a quick once over before I send? Thank you so much.
    Here goes after a skim read through.

    Non-compliance with Paragraph 9
    (2)(h) identify the creditor and specify how and to whom payment or notification to the creditor may be made;
    The creditor was not identified.
    I think I'd add in here that just because the NtK comes on PPC letterhead, it does not necessarily mean that they are 'the creditor' who could just as easily be the landowner, the site's managing agent or any other third party. PoFA is very clear that the creditor must be identified.

    Point # 3 - The Notice to Keeper received by the keeper is not PoFA compliant. The following requirements are not as required according to POFA 2012 Schedule 4:
    Finalise that appeal point 'In view of the serious PoFA requirement omissions in the NtK, the keeper cannot be possibly held liable for this parking charge.

    Point #5 - Other than the large banner advertising the £1 per hour parking fee, any other sign
    I'd feed in here a short paragraph on 'Contra Proferentem'.
    Contra proferentem (Latin: "against [the] offeror"), also known as "interpretation against the draftsman", is a doctrine of contractual interpretation providing that, where a promise, agreement or term is ambiguous, the preferred meaning should be the one that works against the interests of the party who provided the wording. The doctrine is often applied to situations involving standardized contracts or where the parties are of unequal bargaining power, but is applicable to other cases.
    Other than the above, it looks good. Nice formatting too.

    Convert to a .pdf document, attach it to the POPLA appeals portal, put your reference details in the appeal portal and words to the effect 'Please find attached POPLA appeal for <reference number/VRM etc>. Submit it under 'Other'.

    Good luck, do let us know how it progresses.
    We cannot provide you with a silver bullet to get you out of this. You have to be in for the long run, and need to involve yourself in research and work for you to get rid of this. It is not simple. We will help, but can't do it for you.

    Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day; show him how to catch fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 19th Sep 17, 10:21 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Thank you! That's so helpful and reassuring! I'll let you know what happens.
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 19th Sep 17, 2:32 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Submitted, fingers crossed! Thank you everyone for all your help!
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 10th Oct 17, 5:19 PM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    I've now been asked for comments within 7 days, they are claiming the banner was gone at the time the ticket was received which is a lie. I have a photo taken on that date. They have also submitted 28 documents which I haven't looked at yet!

    "The appellant entered into a contractual agreement upon parking on site. The terms are laid out on the signage and state that vehicles must clearly display a valid pay and display ticket. By parking on the land at any time in contravention to the above, the driver agrees to pay a parking charge.
    At the time of contravention the appellant was not clearly displaying a valid pay and display ticket and therefore agreed to pay a parking charge.
    The pay and display ticket has expired by 25 minutes. Grace periods are given to allow the driver opportunity to leave the car park however after 25 minutes there was still no attempt from the driver to leave.
    It is the drivers responsibility to ensure they are parked in accordance with the terms. The banner provided by the appellant was in fact on site some time ago when the rate was as such. However since the change of rate this banner has been removed and replaced. The appellants photo does not show this on site at the time of event. It is the drivers responsibility to check the time and ensure they return to their car accordingly. If when the ticket came out of the machine, they had an enquires, our number is on the board and we can be contacted.
    See signage near vehicle. Signs are BPA approved.
    Seeking keeper liability."
    • Redx
    • By Redx 10th Oct 17, 5:30 PM
    • 16,119 Posts
    • 20,201 Thanks
    Redx
    take apart any issues or errors in their claims on signage , contracts (redacted contracts too) - so authority to sign them and are they signed clearly ? , are they still in force ? any expiry ?

    if the driver has not been named then have they managed to transfer POFA2012 liability to the apellant ? (when the driver has not been disclosed for example)

    the driver may have erred, but unless they used POFA2012 to transfer the liability to the keeper (the apellant) they are snookered because the keeper would not be liable

    so highlight any and all issues in their evidence pack, including failures , suppositions and assumptions

    if the signage fails, say so and why
    Newbies !!
    Private Parking ticket? check the 2 sticky threads by coupon-mad and crabman in the Parking Tickets, Fines & Parking Board forum for the latest advice or maybe try pepipoo or C.A.G. or legal beagles forums if you need legal advice as well because this parking forum is not about debt collectors or legal matters per se
    • Bexter8
    • By Bexter8 15th Oct 17, 7:58 AM
    • 33 Posts
    • 14 Thanks
    Bexter8
    Does this sound OK? (My previous submission is here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10VG_3W9LLm4TTZL-45C39hRyQ1aKruCMw9Bz3tgR0xU/edit?usp=sharing) I can't add any more attachments, only comments so I can't send the photos proving the date it was taken and I'm not sure they can get that info when the image was embedded in a PDF.

    The banner had not been replaced at the time of the parking charge and was still advertising the rate at £1 per hour as per the photograph supplied demonstrating that the driver thought they were entering into a contractual agreement paying £3 for 3 hours parking.

    The photo taken of the banner on display was taken on the same day as can be proved by the EXIF data in the original photo which states Date taken. A screen grab can also be provided from the phone on which the photo was taken which also identifies the date as being 14 July 2017. Additionally, another photo can be provided, taken on the same day, with the banner showing and 2 cars can be identified as being the same cars as visible in the photos provided by one parking solution. They can be seen in the same position as they were in photo 711738-OPS48620.

    As previously stated, the other signage was not clear and the photograph provided by OPS showing the sign adjacent to the car clearly shows it is well below eye level (in fact it appears to be less than 30cm above ground level) and the text is not clear. Even looking at the close up image provided, 711726-OPS48620, any PCN amount cannot be seen and is therefore not clear as it says it should be in the contract provided by OPS. The text is far too small to be read clearly.

    It is not clear from the contract whether it is still valid as the initial 12 months had expired, the “rolling” contract may not still be in force. Does the site contact have authority to sign the contract and are they still in charge of the site?

    POFA 2012 was not adhered to with regards to the Notice to Keeper as laid out previously, therefore liability cannot be transferred to the keeper of the vehicle.
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